OK guys, I'm sure that some of you know I'm from Toronto as I've said as much in some of my posts. Well, I was talking basketball with some of my friends today, and an interesting debate started, and I would appreciate your input in helping resolve it. The topic centered around Vancouver moving, and what caused it. The feeling amongst a lot of people up here is that the Canadian teams were started on shakey ground. Stern and a few others were pushing hard for the 2 Canadian franchises, and a lot of owners were a little jingoistic and against expanding outside the U.S., and that was why the Raptors and Grizzlies were so screwed in the first 5 years, which made establishing themselves that much harder. But the debate I'm talking about had more to do with whether American fans of other teams even know about the unprecedented and likely never to be repeated restrictions that the Canadian teams were playing under in their first 5 years, a rather crucial period in establishing a fan base, I'm sure you'll all agree. On that note, I was wondering if you guys would care to comment. Do you know about the restricitons on the draft and salary cap that hindered Toronto and Vancouver? Do you know, for example, who won the draft lottery the year Iverson went first? Did you know that for the first 5 years of their existence both teams had a salary cap of 1/3 (for a couple of years) and 2/3 (for the last few) of the rest of the league? Did you know that they were not allowed the first overall pick regardless of where they finished? If you did know this, what do you think of it? How much significance did it play in Vancouver leaving? Also, why do you think Vancouver moved? I agree they've compounded their circumstances with some bad moves, but surely no worse than, say, the Nets or Clippers have done for years...How many years do you guys think the Grizzlies had the worst attendance? If you don't know, you might be surprised to know the answer is 0. Even this last year, despite all the rumours that they were leaving, they were ahead of 4 other franchises (including Houston) when the announcment that they intended to leave came down.And how many of those franchises are moving?In terms of financial support, how many teams have built new stadiums since the Grizzlies? Anyways, I'm interested to know what you guys were aware of, and what you think. One of my friends maintains the negative view of Americans as being myopic, and says that you guys don't know, or if you do, don't care. I disagreed. Hopefully you'll prove me right. Not that I'm trying to influence your answers, but HE'S not a Rockets fan like I am...Please do answer though, I'll really appreciate it. ------------------
In all honesty, I think the high taxes are what keeps those teams down. How come we get so many good FA here in Texas (for all 3 teams)? Partially because we have no income tax here. In Canada, it's huge (or so i've heard), and if you sign a 70 million dollar contract, but will see only like 30 million or 35 million after taxes, that kindof sucks, even though you couldn't possibly spend that much money. Unfortunately, no matter how much the fans are into the game, I think the teams (1 team now) up there will never be all that great because of lack of free agents. Things have to be done through drafts and trades for Toronto. So far, they've done well, but I don't see them luring in many big name free agents ever. ------------------ CC.net's most courteous driver Oh yeah, and I'm looking for a job right now, so hire me please
I think it was less the fact that those teams were in Canada and more the fact that Orlando got Shaq and made it to the Finals so quickly that caused the NBA to put the restrictions they did on the Grizz and Raptors. Those restrictions likely would've been there even if the expansion teams were in Memphis and Louisville. You seem to be wondering why Vancouver is being allowed to move while none of these other teams is moving, and the answer to that is that none of these other teams has asked to move. The Rockets would've asked to move and probably been approved had they not been able to strike a deal in Houston for a new facility (complicating the Rockets move was that they are tied to the Compaq Center until 2003, so they had a big incentive to try again). Charlotte's move will likely be approved should they apply to move again next year. Even the Spurs likely would've been allowed to move despite being at the top of the League in attendance. The only thing that kept them in San Antonio was approval of the SBC Center. Personally, I think the NBA made a mistake in placing so many restrictions on the Canadian teams. I think the NBA should celebrate when their expansion teams become competitive early. But other owners didn't see it that way. They resented the Magic being so good so quickly and stepped in to make sure that the next expansion teams could not have that same success. The Grizz were poised to win the hearts and minds of Vancouver sports fans. The Canucks stunk and appeared to be trying to stink during the early days of the Grizzlies. Had the team had even modest success during that time, Vancouverites probably would've fallen all over themselves to fall in love with the team. Even with that, though, as soon as McCaw bailed out, the team was really on its last legs. They went from being a team that owned its arena to being a tennant in someone else's arena. And in the NBA of today, that situation doesn't work. To truly compete money-wise, a team really has to control its arena (though in Canada, the profits from controlling the arena are less because the buildings are usually paid for privately and taxed). ------------------
Hey JAG im from Toronto also do you post on the Jaguars site? i no you from some other board i just cant remember right now ------------------ ***FRANCHISE***
Yeah, California taxes suck!!! I pay 40%+ of my salary for taxes, and yet after driving on a bumpy freeway home, I often find blackouts waiting for me, no electricity for anything or hot water for shower. Worst of all, the nearest NBA team for me is Golden State Warriors, who miss at least 5 open lay-ups in every game I watch on TV. Since Shaq can Kobe stay here, there must be a reason I have yet to discover. Canadian taxes can't be the only problem. My guess is that most NBA players are just not enterpreneurs who want to venture out of the country. ------------------
my question is why do reporter talk about bibby sharef and other players like no one knows about their talent because they play in vacouver. "this guy would be a major star but he plays for the gizzlies and no one hears about them"....bs if you follow basketball than you know whos good and whos not no matter of where they play. the reason they are not superstars is bc their teams dont win. ------------------
Hmmmm...kinda hard to argue against that point. MJ was great but was he considered the greatest of all time before he won a championship? I don't think he was even considered the best in the league at the time. ------------------
Jordan was very well known even before the Bulls championships, though. Even if he wasn't thought to be "the best", he was thought to be among them, and he was very high profile. Even people who didn't follow basketball knew who Jordan was prior to the Bulls championships. ------------------
Yes, more Canadians on board! With Grizzled flanking the west in Calgary, fadeaway stationed on the east coast in Newfoundland, and with the three of us in the middle, CC.Net has some nice Canadian flava. Heck, the Aussies should be looking over their rearview mirrors in fear! The renowned Popeye/Oeipere himself is a fellow Canadian living in the states. JAG and franchise_3, I had no idea you guys were from Toronto, let alone Canucks . What part of town are you guys in - I'm actually 20 km west along the Q.E.W in Oakville. Once the season starts, we can even borrow a page off of the "austin rocketball association" or whatever and form the Toronto Rocketball association and cheer the Rocks on! Anyways, we'll see. As for the Grizzlies moving, I think there were many factors. Poor management, high taxes and tight league regulations played their part. But, as is with almost every Canadian pro franchise (save maybe the Leafs)the past 5-6 years, the Canadian dollar is really hurting the teams. With it being just $.64 to the US dollar right now, it really does put the Expos, Grizzlies, Flames, Oilers, Raptors, etc in a huge disadvantage in every aspect of their business, from salaries, merchandise - everything. The reasons why the Raptors are fairly better off than the Grizz (though not by much), is they have been managed much better, and the corporate presence in Toronto outweighs that of Vancouver's. Vancouver is probably slight below average in comparison to the size of the other NBA cities, while Toronto is the 4th largest city in North America (after NY, Mexico City, LA and Chicago). That makes a difference as well. However, if Antonio and then Vince end up leaving town, that could gradually spell the end of basketball in Canada for good. That would be a shame. HAPPY CANADA DAY! Azim da Dream ------------------ "Africa is a nation that suffers from incredible disease." - Geroge W. Bush, commenting on the troubled continent, to reporters in Sweden [This message has been edited by Azim da Dream (edited July 01, 2001).]
Unless you are talking about the total area of the Toronto Metro Area you are waaaay off in saying that Toronto is the 4th largest city in North America... ------------------ Who's ya daddy?
Quick Toronto facts: <u>Population and Location </u> - 2.5 million people - 632 sq.km. - One third of Canada's population is located within 160 km radius of Toronto. - One half of the population of the United States is within one day's drive of Toronto <u>Business/Economic Development </u> Toronto is Canada's gateway to the international market place. Thanks to NAFTA and other international agreements, Toronto is positioned to become the hub for goods, services and people throughout the western hemisphere. The city offers maximum accessibility to all parts of its region via modern highways, air, rail and urban transit. The city is the region's financial, commercial and administrative core. By maintaining high quality houssing, day care, schools, social services and policing, our downtown core has remained vital, strong and safe. Toronto is a city where people of different ethnic and economic backgrounds live side-by-side in neighbourhoods and communities. As long as Toronto's urban core remains vibrant, its streets safe and its citizens secure, the entire area will enjoy a competitive advantage internationally. - Toronto voted best global City for business, (Fortune, 1996) - Financial centre of Canada, 4th largest in North America, employing 125,000 in financial sector - Home to 90 per cent of Canada's foreign banks, and its top accounting and mutual fund companies, and 80 per cent of Canada's largest R&D, law, advertising and high-tech firms - Known as "Silicon Valley North" with seven of the top 10 information technology companies, including the Canadian headquarters and research centres of Apple, Hewlett-Packard and Sun Microsystems - North America's 3rd largest Stock Exchange by value traded - 75,000 businesses employ more than 1.2 million people - 40 per cent of Canadian companies on Fortune's Global 500 are in Toronto The nation's largest employment centre, with one sixth of Canada's jobs, and strong employment in both manufacturing and service industries - The 4th highest concentration of commercial software companies in the world, and one of North America's hottest animation centres - One of the best telecommunications networks in the world, with one of the highest percentage of fibre optic cable installed, and more wireless phones per capita, than anywhere in North America <u>Arts/Culture/Entertainment </u> - Home to 4 professional sports teams; hockey, football, basketball, baseball - 3rd largest English-language theatre centre in the world behind London and New York - Considered "Hollywood North" by film industry: 3rd in TV and film production, and 2nd as exporter of TV programming, in North America - Canada's #1 tourist destination, with 21 million visitors in 1999 - Toronto has four English language dailies, The Globe and Mail, The National Post, The Toronto Star, The Toronto Sun; over 400 business periodicals, and 79 ethnic publications - A leading contender for the 2008 Olympic Games, competing with Paris, Beijing, China, Osaka and Istanbul <u>Racial Diversity </u> - Toronto is heralded as one of the most multicultural cities in the world - Toronto ranked as the safest large metropolitan area in North America by Places Rated Almanac - Toronto received 80,000 immigrants in 1997 from 169 countries - Over 100 languages are spoken in Toronto, and one third of Toronto residents speak at home a language other than English 48 per cent of Toronto's population are immigrants - By 2001, foreign-born residents will comprise more than 50 per cent of population <u>Infrastructure </u> - Toronto has outstanding air, road and rail transportation facilities, including North America's second largest public transit system. - Toronto has an excellent telecommunications infrastructure in terms of access lines with digital switching and advanced signalling technology. Toronto is also located in the larget flat rate calling area in the world, and has the most fibre optic cable of any city in North America. - National Trade Centre is the 3rd largest exhibit facility in North America with over 1 million sq. ft. of exhibit space; the capacity of the Toronto Convention Centre recently doubled - Over 7,800 restaurants and 32,000 hotel rooms - North America's largest public transit system after New York - North America's largest continuous underground pedestrian system, connecting 1100 stores and restaurants, 48 office towers, 6 major hotels and several entertainment centres Source: Toronto Board of Trade "Profile of Toronto and the Greater Toronto Area, 1998/99: Toronto business and market guide". ------------------ All hail Fadeaway's Cyberfish -- your 2000-2001 BobFinn* Fantasy Basketball League Champions! [This message has been edited by fadeaway (edited July 01, 2001).]
Azim Da Dream, i live in Thornhill i dont no if you know where that is and JAG i have seen you on other boards just cant remeber where ------------------ ***FRANCHISE***
Azim, fadeaway and franchise (hope I'm not missing anyone) Happy C-Day back at you! I live pretty much downtown Toronto, as I go to U of T, if you know the area...Do you guys root for thr Raps as well? I've been a Rockets fan since I was a little kid, back in the days of Rodney, Ralph, ect...but I am now also a Toronto Raptors fan,which has been exciting, being able to watch a team come to life and grow. I had no idea there were any other real Rockets fans in the area...Oh, by the way, is there an equivalent site to C.C. for the Raps? I haven't seen one...Anyways, nice to meet you guys, and, sure, I'm all for setting up a site as suggested. ------------------
What's that supposed to mean? ------------------ All hail Fadeaway's Cyberfish -- your 2000-2001 BobFinn* Fantasy Basketball League Champions!
Actually, I don't like the Raptors these days. I still feel obligated to cheer for them since they're the only Canadian team and all, but the whole team is comprised of a bunch of players I really don't care for. I loved them when they had Mouse and Doug Christie (one of my favorite players) and currently I'm a big Jerome fan (JYD baby, woof!) but the rest of the team bites. Oakley is a thug and Vince is a egotistical maniac both on and off the court. I don't know of any good Raptors sites, and truthfully, I have no desire to find one. I'm quite happy and secure right here as a Rocket fan. ------------------ All hail Fadeaway's Cyberfish -- your 2000-2001 BobFinn* Fantasy Basketball League Champions!
Typical Torontonian, forgetting about us westerners. But let's leave politics aside on this our great nation's birthday. Happy Canada Day all!! Fadeaway is from St. John's. You need to be talking to the Toronto guys about their mayor. ------------------
The 'neck is supposed to refer to redneck, although it is beyond me why saying "racial diversity" implies that Toronto's mayor is a redneck or racist. *boggle* Quick (paraphrased) note from Canadian Social Studies classes: "Canada is a Cultural Mosaic, as opposed to America's Melting Pot. This means that differing cultures are encouraged to keep their customs, traditions, and belief systems." In Canada, racial diversity is viewed as a strength, and it is obvious that the summary of Toronto posted above views it as such. In addition, racial diversity is accepted and viewed as natural. People can discuss it openly, and as another poster mentioned, race is not nearly as much of an issue as it is in some parts of the US. By the way, add me to the list of Canadians living in the States - I live in Houston, but was born and raised in Alberta. I think it's really sad to see teams leave Canada, especially hockey teams...I'm still hoping that the Oilers can hang on. But to get back on topic, I suspect that one of the reasons the Grizzlies didn't really catch on in Vancouver is the lack of a large fan base that's played the game. With the current population makeup of Vancouver, the only thing that might have been able to save the Grizzlies was some immediate success in the playoffs to create fans.
The Toronto mayor made an offensive comment towards Africa...something about crazy natives running around naked (I don't really remember the exact comment, but it was John Rocker like). The comment may hurt the city's bid for the Olympics. ------------------ Dream On! [This message has been edited by Smokey (edited July 01, 2001).]
As my fellow Calgarian Grizzled mentioned, fadeaway is from St. Johns, which is a good 2000 km from Toronto. Contrary to popular belief, the entire Canadian population does not live together in one big igloo. As for Toronto's mayor Mel Lastman, he made an idiotic, close-minded remark. Although his comments indicate as such, I don't think he's a bigot, or a 'neck as you put it. He's been known to say some wacky and crazy things in his day, and is not your conventional mayor. He meant to say it jokingly, which of course does not justify his remarks towards Kenya. It certainly won't help Toronto's Olympic bid, but I doubt it will seriously hurt it. If the Olympic committe can overlook drastic human right violations in Beijing, they will surely let some careless remarks from an over-the-top mayor slide. Whatever the case, the mayor's remarks do not take away anything from Toronto's incomparable diversity, as Hugh Mungus might be implying. SirCharlesFan, I know I have read the claim that Toronto is North America's 4th largest city in population various times. As soon as I find a link, I will post it. I distinctly remember that after Toronto's five muncipalities joined to form a unifying megacity, this came out. Sniper -- Alberta, eh? No kidding, I grew up in Calgary. Dayam, the Canadian invasion is in full effect here! JAG, Yeah, I know that area. I use to work at the Toronto General Hospital, and my cousin just graduated from the U of T St. George campus. What are you taking there? Sorry, but I HATE the raptors. Almost as much as I hate the Leafs. I guess I do partly because its fun going against all the locals, and partly because most of my friends are Raptors fans, and have made it their mission to rub in their recent success in my face. Man, going to Game 4 at the ACC vs. the Knicks was a tough one to swallow. Little did they know the Rockets are set to open up a can of whoopass this coming season! franchise_3, I have a strange feeling I may have met you before. I know I met a family friend about 4-5 years ago who happened to be a Rockets fan, and he was from either Richmond Hill or Thornhill -- can't recall exactly which. Drop me an email at azim@cgocable.net ... Azim da Dream ------------------ "Africa is a nation that suffers from incredible disease." - Geroge W. Bush, commenting on the troubled continent, to reporters in Sweden [This message has been edited by Azim da Dream (edited July 01, 2001).]
