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Obama: It may be harder to get info w/o Bush tactics

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by basso, May 1, 2009.

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  1. basso

    basso Member
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    Obama concedes that Bush's methods worked.

    [rquoter]Obama gives nuanced defense of his stance on torture
    He says harsh interrogation methods may have yielded useful information but that they should still be ruled out. His stance suggests complications in ending Bush-era counter-terrorism tactics.
    By Peter Wallsten and Greg Miller

    April 30, 2009

    Reporting from Washington — In a strikingly defensive explanation of his stance on Bush-era anti-terrorism tactics, President Obama on Wednesday acknowledged for the first time that the harsh interrogation techniques he has banned might have yielded useful information, but that he was nonetheless willing to rule them out on moral grounds.

    It was a nuanced performance as Obama walked viewers of his prime-time news conference through a policy that has led him to declare tactics such as waterboarding torture but to stop short of advocating prosecution of the architects of the practices.

    He conceded that "it may be harder" to get information, but what "makes us, I think, still a beacon to the world is that we are willing to hold true to our ideals, even when it's hard, not just when it's easy."

    Coming as Obama confidently assessed his work during his first 100 days in office, his comments on torture underscored a gnawing dilemma: His desire to roll back elements of President Bush's "war on terrorism" could be more complicated than he had envisioned.

    Obama is caught between growing public sentiment against igniting a national debate over past interrogation tactics and a still-emerging insistence by his liberal base that is growing more aggressive in its calls for investigations and prosecutions.

    In conceding that intelligence was gleaned from the harsh techniques, Obama may be making himself vulnerable to arguments by former Vice President Dick Cheney and other conservatives that he is making the country less secure.

    At least one survey this week showed that Cheney's arguments have support and that the shadow of Sept. 11 looms larger in the public mind than Obama might have initially realized.

    A majority of Americans, 53%, said they opposed Obama's release of classified memos detailing the Bush administration's legal rationale for the interrogation tactics used on suspected terrorists, while just 40% supported it, according to an NBC News/Wall Street Journal survey.

    The poll also found that half of Americans opposed Obama's order to close the Guantanamo Bay prison for terrorism suspects, and that a clear majority opposed the idea of criminal investigations of Bush administration figures.

    Moreover, even though a majority believes that America used torture, a plurality said that the interrogations "helped by extracting valuable information."

    Obama's remarks showed that he believes he must take on the former vice president in what is emerging as a battle to either justify or discredit harsh interrogation techniques.

    The issue is not going away, now that the Pentagon has agreed to release a series of photos of abused inmates in Iraq and Afghanistan, the result of a lawsuit brought by the American Civil Liberties Union.

    Obama revealed Wednesday that he had read classified memos recently cited by Cheney as evidence that the CIA's interrogation program produced information that prevented terrorist attacks.

    Cheney has formally requested the declassification of those documents, and U.S. intelligence officials have indicated that the memos, or at least portions of them, are likely to be released.

    Obama did not dispute Cheney's assertions about the memos but appeared to try to blunt their potential impact by shifting the argument.

    The assertion that the CIA's methods worked doesn't answer what Obama called the core question: "Could we have gotten that same information without resorting to these techniques?" Obama asked. "And it doesn't answer the broader question: Are we safer as a consequence of having used these techniques?"

    Obama was asked, twice, whether the Bush administration engaged in torture, which would be illegal. He tried to draw a difficult distinction, never going so far as to say that his predecessor's policies broke the law.

    "I believe that waterboarding was torture," Obama said. "And I think that whatever legal rationales were used, it was a mistake."

    Obama harked back to the restraint shown by Prime Minister Winston Churchill when Britain was under German attack in World War II.

    "London was being bombed to smithereens [and] had 200 or so detainees. And Churchill said, 'We don't torture,' " Obama said. "Churchill understood, you start taking shortcuts, and over time, that corrodes what's best in a people."

    To many human rights advocates calling for the appointment of a special prosecutor or a public inquiry, Obama's answers were remarkable for what he did not say: that he would back an investigation. So activists tried to put those words into his mouth later Wednesday.

    Amrit Singh, a lawyer for the ACLU, said that Obama's statements led to the "inevitable conclusion that government officials who authorized torture must be held accountable for violating the law." Amnesty International issued a stern statement declaring that Obama's comment on waterboarding "means criminal investigations must follow."

    But, to the disappointment of his liberal base, Obama clearly did not want to go there.

    "It's a grave disappointment," said Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights.

    "He admits what was done was torture. And yet he won't dot the 'i' or cross the 't.' Why not?"

    Ratner answered his own question, pointing to conservatives' arguments that Obama's actions are putting the country at risk.

    "It's having an effect," Ratner said. "It's out there, and this argument is up for grabs, which is why Obama's going to have to be firmer as we move forward."[/rquoter]

    oh, and Obama should spend less time ready Andrew Sullivan- The Brits did torture during, and after, WW2.
     
    #1 basso, May 1, 2009
  2. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    #2 SamFisher, May 1, 2009
  3. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    do you disagree with Winston Churchill? Did you bold this to say that Obama is putting our lives in danger by not waterboarding? or do you agree with the statement?
     
    #3 pgabriel, May 1, 2009
  4. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    Hey, Stalin's tactics worked great too! Far better than any tactics we've ever used in the USA! Why limit ourself with pesky morals? We could have this country in ship shape with in weeks if we eliminate the Constitution and set up our own Checka! Maybe we can appoint you first People's Commisar of State Security, basso. You could be pulling people's teeth and fingernails within a week in order to get confessions and information. Wouldn't that be fun!
     
    #4 Ottomaton, May 1, 2009
  5. basso

    basso Member
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    no, just highlighting a statement that is false. the Brits did torture.
     
    #5 basso, May 1, 2009
  6. weslinder

    weslinder Member

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    I don't give a rat's ass if it helps. We are America! We don't ****ing torture!
     
    #6 weslinder, May 1, 2009
    1 person likes this.
  7. basso

    basso Member
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    shep, that you?

    i think this is the argument we're having:

    <table style='font:11px arial; color:#333; background-color:#f5f5f5' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='360' height='353'><tbody><tr style='background-color:#e5e5e5' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/'>The Daily Show With Jon Stewart</a></td><td style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; text-align:right; font-weight:bold;'>M - Th 11p / 10c</td></tr><tr style='height:14px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;' colspan='2'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=226122&title=cliff-may-unedited-interview'>Cliff May Unedited Interview Pt. 2</a></td></tr><tr style='height:14px; background-color:#353535' valign='middle'><td colspan='2' style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; width:360px; overflow:hidden; text-align:right'><a target='_blank' style='color:#96deff; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/'>thedailyshow.com</a></td></tr><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><embed style='display:block' src='http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:comedycentral.com:226122' width='360' height='301' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' wmode='window' allowFullscreen='true' flashvars='autoPlay=false' allowscriptaccess='always' allownetworking='all' bgcolor='#000000'></embed></td></tr><tr style='height:18px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><table style='margin:0px; text-align:center' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='100%' height='100%'><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/index.jhtml'>Daily Show<br/> Full Episodes</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/tagSearchResults.jhtml?term=Clusterf%23%40k+to+the+Poor+House'>Economic Crisis</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://blog.indecisionforever.com/2009/04/29/barack-obamas-first-100-days-in-100-seconds/'>First 100 Days</a></td></tr></table></td></tr></tbody></table>
     
    #7 basso, May 1, 2009
  8. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    cute signature basso - did you titter to yourself at the thought of how cheeky you were being, and the thought of MAXIMUM TWEAKAGE that you are giving to Rockets2K? I certainly did.

    P.S...if search were on, it would be illuminating to find old threads where basso goes on trumpeting his moral superiority due to his support for the war, and decrying the horrors of moral relativism (complete with many uses of the word "feckless" - a favorite epithet of pudgy middle aged armchair badasses all over the interwebs.). On torture though this disappears.

    And before you can say it works both ways - the argument against torture isn't simply moral, it's a very clear cut legal one as well, and actually a moral relative one also, given that torture is not as effective as other methods and far more costly.
     
    #8 SamFisher, May 1, 2009
    Last edited: May 1, 2009
  9. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    I've never encountered a stronger case of ownership than what basso has done to SamFisher. Amazing work, sir. AMAZING WORK. Watching Samf run around panicked, attempting (and failing) to discredit basso is pure greatness.
     
    #9 El_Conquistador, May 1, 2009
  10. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    Yawn. I believe the operative word in Obama's statement is "may," as in "idiots on a BBS can debate until the cows come home whether torture may or may not yield any useful information."

    This is yawn, folks.

    Thanks to weslinder for my continued tiny light of hope for the future of the country and dialogue within it.
     
    #10 B-Bob, May 1, 2009
  11. DonnyMost

    DonnyMost Member
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    [​IMG]

    Basso is bound to tunnel his way to theoretical China by the time this torture thing blows over, by god!
     
    #11 DonnyMost, May 1, 2009
  12. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    It's beyond hypocritical that your concern for 'dialogue' and everyone getting along coincides perfectly with a democrat being elected. I don't recall many libs being very gracious and respectful towards the last Administration... no cred
     
    #12 El_Conquistador, May 1, 2009
  13. juicystream

    juicystream Member

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    Did bigtexxx, basso, & T_J rep each other?
     
    #13 juicystream, May 1, 2009
  14. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Member

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    yeah lets have an honest and serious dialogue around the facts..

    can you provide links to to all threads started by liberals which were ungracious and unrespectful towards Bush during the first 100 days of his first term?
     
    #14 vlaurelio, May 1, 2009
  15. CrazyDave

    CrazyDave Member

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    Ends do not justify means. And yes, if you ignore the part about Obama stating that getting information in other ways might be more difficult, but could be done, and in ways that we don't discard our values and morals. Perhaps he used Churchill as a reference where he shouldn't have, I don't know the facts to debate it, but I don't think he'd back down from his point either.

    Why are you so PRO torture, if I may ask? Or is it just another point of contention between you and the party who won the presidency because the last administration trampled and offended the entire world?

    Seriously, is this going to be an eight year whine? I'm all for productive discussions about whatever, but I just never see it with this constant focus on... what are you focusing on again? The only common theme I see is "I HATE THAT OBAMA WON, AND WON'T STOP COMPLAINING UNTIL..."

    I really think that this prevailing Conservative/GOP attitude is doing the party a sincere disservice... but do as you choose.
     
    #15 CrazyDave, May 1, 2009
  16. basso

    basso Member
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    i'm not pro-torture, and i don't think any one is. watch the stewart video i posted above- cliff may does an excellent job making the point i think those of us who support W's methodology are trying to make.
     
    #16 basso, May 1, 2009
  17. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Member

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    are you anti-torture :confused:
     
    #17 vlaurelio, May 1, 2009
  18. ROXTXIA

    ROXTXIA Member

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    Great. An op-ed piece by some guy who wrote One Party Country: The Republican Plan for Dominance in the 21st Century.

    Hey, at least you're not quoting biased sources, taking a "maybe torture got some info, maybe it didn't" and turning it into justification for being the #1 jerkoff here on the BBS. You even brought jerkoff #2 out of hiding, T_J.

    Let me go find something from the Village Voice to use as an unbiased rebuttal and make it look like news.
     
    #18 ROXTXIA, May 1, 2009
  19. basso

    basso Member
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    stewart walks it back.

    <table style='font:11px arial; color:#333; background-color:#f5f5f5' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='360' height='353'><tbody><tr style='background-color:#e5e5e5' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/'>The Daily Show With Jon Stewart</a></td><td style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; text-align:right; font-weight:bold;'>M - Th 11p / 10c</td></tr><tr style='height:14px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;' colspan='2'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=225918&title=harry-truman-was-not-a-war'>Harry Truman Was Not a War Criminal</a></td></tr><tr style='height:14px; background-color:#353535' valign='middle'><td colspan='2' style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; width:360px; overflow:hidden; text-align:right'><a target='_blank' style='color:#96deff; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/'>thedailyshow.com</a></td></tr><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><embed style='display:block' src='http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:comedycentral.com:225918' width='360' height='301' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' wmode='window' allowFullscreen='true' flashvars='autoPlay=false' allowscriptaccess='always' allownetworking='all' bgcolor='#000000'></embed></td></tr><tr style='height:18px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><table style='margin:0px; text-align:center' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='100%' height='100%'><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/index.jhtml'>Daily Show<br/> Full Episodes</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/tagSearchResults.jhtml?term=Clusterf%23%40k+to+the+Poor+House'>Economic Crisis</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://blog.indecisionforever.com/2009/04/29/barack-obamas-first-100-days-in-100-seconds/'>First 100 Days</a></td></tr></table></td></tr></tbody></table>

    think he'll grant the same level of understanding to W?

    "it was a complicated decision."

    Indeed.
     
    #19 basso, May 1, 2009
  20. Major

    Major Member

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    Do you agree with or disagree with John McCain:


    It's unacceptable. It's unacceptable. One is too much. Waterboarding is torture, period. I can ensure you that once enough physical pain is inflicted on someone, they will tell that interrogator whatever they think they want to hear. And most importantly, it serves as a great propaganda tool for those who recruit people to fight against us. And I've seen concrete examples of that talking to former high-ranking al-Qaeda individuals in Iraq.

    ...

    According to the FBI, they did not. According to the CIA, they did. With all due respect, my view is, whether they did or not, the image of the United States of America throughout the world is a recruiting tool for Islamic extremists. And I got that from a former high-ranking al Qaeda in Iraq.


    Do you agree or disagree with General Petraeus?

    Some may argue that we would be more effective if we sanctioned torture or other expedient methods to obtain information from the enemy. They would be wrong. Beyond the basic fact that such actions are illegal, history shows that they also are frequently neither useful nor necessary. Certainly, extreme physical action can make someone "talk;" however, what the individual says may be of questionable value. In fact, our experience in applying the interrogation standards laid out in the Army Field Manual (2-22.3) on Human Intelligence Collector Operations that was published last year shows that the techniques in the manual work effectively and humanely in eliciting information from detainees.

    We are, indeed, warriors. We train to kill our enemies. We are engaged in combat, we must pursue the enemy relentlessly, and we must be violent at times. What sets us apart from our enemies in this fight, however, is how we behave. In everything we do, we must observe the standards and values that dictate that we treat noncombatants and detainees with dignity and respect. While we are warriors, we are also all human beings.
     
    #20 Major, May 1, 2009
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