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[NYT] You Were Duped Into Saying Yes. Is That Still Consent?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Os Trigonum, Mar 5, 2021.

  1. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    @LosPollosHermanos

    "You Were Duped Into Saying Yes. Is That Still Consent?"

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/05/opinion/sexual-consent.html

    You Were Duped Into Saying Yes. Is That Still Consent?
    Legal scholars have long debated this question. Recent psychological studies shed new light.

    By Roseanna Sommers
    Dr. Sommers is an assistant professor of law at the University of Michigan. She also has a Ph.D. in psychology. Her research often uses empirical techniques from the social sciences to clarify legal concepts.

    March 5, 2021, 5:00 a.m. ET

    Imagine the following hypothetical situation: Frank and Ellen meet at a night course and end up getting drinks together after class several times. The drinks start to feel like dates, so Ellen asks Frank if he is married, making it clear that adultery is a deal-breaker for her. Frank is married, but he lies and says he is single. The two go to bed. Is Frank guilty of rape?

    To most people, even those who consider Frank a dishonorable creep, the answer is clearly no. The law agrees: In most American jurisdictions, Frank is not liable for any tort or crime, let alone something as serious as sexual assault.

    But why? This question has been a source of contention among legal experts for decades, ever since the law professor Susan Estrich argued that the law of rape should prohibit fraud to procure sex, just as the law of theft prohibits fraud to secure money. Ellen did not consent to have sex with a married man, the argument goes, so the sex she had with Frank was not consensual.

    To many feminist legal scholars, the law’s failure to regard sexual fraud as a crime — when fraud elsewhere, such as fraud in business transactions, is taken to invalidate legal consent — shows that we are still beholden to an antiquated notion that rape is primarily a crime of force committed against a chaste, protesting victim, rather than primarily a violation of the right to control access to one’s body on one’s own terms.

    It’s a powerful argument. Still, to many people, even those concerned about accountability for sexual misconduct, the notion that Frank has committed sexual assault remains deeply counterintuitive. How are we to reconcile these competing considerations?

    I recently conducted a series of psychological studies that shed light on this debate. My research suggests that the reason people think Frank is not guilty of rape has less to do with their treating rape differently from other offenses and more to do with how they understand consent. Many people, it turns out, believe that an individual can give consent even though she was lied to by the person seeking her consent.

    I asked hundreds of research participants to evaluate hypothetical situations in which a person is tricked into agreeing to something he would otherwise refuse. In one situation, a patient agrees to a medical procedure as a result of a doctor’s false representations. In another, a civilian allows police officers into his home because they lie about what they are searching for. In another, a research participant agrees to enroll in a study after the researcher lies about its purpose.

    Surprisingly, I found that most people say that the victims in all these cases have “consented.” I also found that most people agree with the moral and legal implications of that view: For instance, they say that a doctor who performs a surgery after obtaining consent by lying deserves less punishment for medical battery than a doctor who simply performs the surgery without asking permission.

    These findings fly in the face of the standard scholarly understanding of consent, which is that it is an expression of an individual’s autonomous will — controlling one’s life as one would like. Interestingly, my participants agreed with this standard legal understanding when presented with situations in which coercion or threats were used to achieve the same ends, such as when someone agreed to sex as a result of blackmail. It was only when the situations involved deception that respondents thought the victim’s “yes” counted as consent.

    So it seems that the reason many people have a strong intuition that Frank didn’t rape Ellen is that they think it’s fair to say she consented, not because they think rape must involve physical force.

    Of course, my empirical discovery does not resolve the question of whether our laws should criminalize sex-by-deception. It merely shows that if you have conflicted feelings about the case of Frank and Ellen, it may be because you think that his deception does not fully invalidate her consent. Whether lawmakers ought to disregard that intuition and insist on treating such cases as nonconsensual remains an open question. There might be good reasons, after all, for the law to discipline us against following our gut instincts.

    Roseanna Sommers is an assistant professor of law at the University of Michigan.



     
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  2. REEKO_HTOWN

    REEKO_HTOWN I'm Rich Biiiiaaatch!

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    Masterful troll job too. Or she just wrote down a Highdea after hoping out of the shower.
     
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  3. Roc Paint

    Roc Paint Member

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    Why say no when it feels so good to say yes
     
  4. heypartner

    heypartner Member

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    The difference between fraud for money or medical procedures is the vast majority of society (maybe even 100%) agree they wouldn’t have consented had they known. Which makes it easy to create a law.

    In the case of lying about your life to get the consent, that law would have to agree condition of consent is a personal preference, which is not even close to establishing that a significant majority of society would agree it’s a deal-breaker lie. There are many ppl who wouldn’t consider marriage to be a deal breaker, and there are even more who would break their own rule for the right guy/woman...or if they are separated, etc, etc

    so, unlike other frauds, where society can all agree, we can’t make personal-preference criteria to be on the same level...especially because it then allows fraud the other way, whereby someone can claim marriage was a “rape” lie to them, but that being a lie, too. With money fraud or med procedure fraud, actual harm is material and completed...we don’t need to determine if you are lying about that.
     
    #4 heypartner, Mar 5, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
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  5. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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  6. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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  7. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy
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    I wasn't duped into reading this thread.
     
  8. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    So if I find out she's wearing a pushup or what she really looks like without makeup, I'm entitled to press charges and some damages?
     
    #8 Invisible Fan, Mar 5, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
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  9. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    one of the arguments I've seen today tried that as the counterfactual--e.g.,

    On this understanding of rape, ie fraudulently obtained consent, or consent given under a false impression, the woman could equally be the rapist. Suppose for example a woman lies about breast implants. The man would never have sex with someone with implants... has she raped him?
    And I think what folks suggested in response that yes, while there has been something done here that is morally wrong, it just doesn't rise to the level of "rape." Suggesting there is something wrong or mistaken in the original analysis.
     
  10. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    Well that loophole is disgusting. I don't know how far "deception" goes until you face charges, but the OP's hypothetical scenario is rife with challenges.

    It's too bad a simple "smell test" doesn't work anymore.

    People lie all the time. Non-sexual humiliation happens despite the sex involved, and I don't think the legal system can rectify this.

    The loophole scenario from the first reply needs to be addressed because that goes beyond humiliation. It's serial behavior, to me at least.
     
  11. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    So O's can actually post something without trying to rile up the libs.

    Good job.
     
  12. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    What do you mean the smell test?
     
  13. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    Os Trigonum and jiggyfly like this.
  14. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    What if two people mutually choose to have sex because of lies each one is feeding the other. Have they raped eachother?
     
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  15. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy
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    Coming 2026 from director Christopher Nolen
     
  16. Xerobull

    Xerobull ...and I'm all out of bubblegum
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    What kind of backward ass contrived SJW liberal feminist bullshit is this?

    Two people who were attracted to each other while drunk ****ed. Get over it.
     
  17. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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