Here is my beef followed with my question. NFL QB's are judged more so on how many yards and touchdowns they through for than anything else. Is this fair/right? The way passing yardage is counted is flawed IMO. A QB ought to get credit for completion of a pass from the line of scrimmage to where his reciever catches the ball. The ticker should stop right there period. This would truly represent how many yards one PASSES for. Also a credited TD pass should be counted as a pass that is either caught in the Endzone or caught with ones momentum carrying him in. QB's shouldnt get credit with throwing their running back a screen pass for 2 yards and him taking it to the house for another 65 yards. I think that should be more credited to the RB/WR in that case. Is my thinking flawed? Or are QB's getting too much credit for what a T.O. or a Andre Johnson does after the catch? I would like some educated opinions on this. Thanks in advance.
by that logic, should the receiver should only get credit for yards after the catch??? that wouldn't be fair since the receiver is working to get open before the catch. Yards after the catch are largely influenced by the throw. If the throw is high, or behind the receiver, there will be less yards after the catch. If the QB hits the receiver in stride, there is a better opportunity for yards after the catch. I think the system is fine.
Hmm Good point. However, I think the reciever should get credit the exact way that they have been. See it takes the recievers effort to get open and catch the ball, then do what he does after he catches it. However the QB's job stops once he lets the ball go. He should not get credited with a 30 yard gain on a botched 3 yard pass.
I believe little inequities like this exist on each side enough that it all balances out. Your initial point here is still addressed by the comment that the QB's placement of the throw largely influences yards after catch. Secondly, I'd like to point out that in team games, individual stats are *hugely* impacted by the team of which the individual is a member. Pitcher's ERAs are often lower on teams with great leather. Power hitters have better RBI numbers when another power hitter is behind them in the order and a good OBP guy is ahead of them in the order. If you have Jerry Rice in his prime, you're going to have great passing yardage. Good centers and PF's can have better fpct. numbers when a good PG is getting them better looks. Philosophically, I like that the team around the player has such an impact on the player's individual numbers. It's the player's job to make the team better, so it all balances out, IMO.
There are individual stats to measure tho. For example does the qb hit the open wr. Does the wr break stride. The problem is you need equalizers. The same problem you will have matching a pitcher to hitter is the same problem you'll have matching a west coast qb vs. a run and shoot qb. The same problem you will have matching a short pass to a deep ball. There needs to be an equalizer or derivative that brings the qb's and types of throws together for some kind of comparison. I think it could be done. Partially because the stats exist for each kind of offense and for all levels of qb and for all types of throws. But somebody at MIT would need to work it out if it has not already been done. Since the act of throwing is so structured I think the stats could all be brought into line for analysis. Sounds like a nice little project.
I'm not a huge stats guy. I watch football for the enjoyment of the sport and rarely look at stats during the regular season. I try to study the QB while each game takes place, but I can see where it would be fun to make these kinds of stats.
I dont know man, he is the single determining factor on whether or not the Falcons make the playoffs. From the preseason game in Tokyo his backup does look pretty good. But give me Vick anyday. The deal with Vick is, he doesnt have to rely on his arm. The only way you will ever make him a pocket passer up to where say Peyton is, is if some how you either took his God given wheels away or wrapped both his legs in duck tape.
Me either, and I love Football more than almost anything. However i just think some QB's get too much credit for actually what their recievers\running backs or lines do. I will never dispute that the two hardest positions to play in Football are QB and Cornerback. I just think the more clear representation of how man yards a QB throws for would be told if a stat were kept on his yards from Point A to Point B "Throw to Catch". Then we would really see who is putting up true yards as a QB. Just my opinion though...
Yeah, but then you can make the same argument about RB's. How much of their success is dictated by the offensive line? same thing with Qb's. A crappy line can make a QB look horrible in a hurry! Someone pointed it out best- in a team game such as this, individual stats are highly dependant on other players. That's okay, football still rules....
idk, but i just got Madden 06 and im pumped. Just had to say that and this was about football so ya...
If you want to get a game in let me know... David Carr's passing cone sucks, but the Texans are pretty good on paper for that game. Speed at the corners and every skill spot on offense.
True in the case of Barry Sanders, none of his success could be attributed to the offensive line, however in Emmitt Smiths case, most of his was. My point is, it will never be fool proof and football is the ultimate team sport. But even with that why shouldnt we count a completed pass from throw to catch? As it stands now, QB's get credit for the run after the catch. RB's dont get credit for running East and West. <--- This could be a bad analogy but....
But even *that* stat would be dependent upon the receivers! Seriously, the difference between a 5-yard pass and a 7-yard pass or even a 20-yard pass (throw-to-catch, as you call it) is the route the receiver ran, not the strength of the QB's arm. It seems a truer representation of the QB's performance would simply be completions--but even *that* would be dependent on receivers.
I just disagree, man. If QB doesn't get the ball to WR in the first place, there are *zero* yards after catch. If he throws behind WR, there are zero yards after catch, or significantly less. If he throws high, it's less. If his throw is on the money, give him the yardage.
Right, what is exactly my point. Once the receiver catches the ball, thats where the QB's job ended. Now I would be all for maybe say a break away stat where a QB found his receiver wide open to the endzone, then yes give that to him. But if he catches it in a crowd and takes it to the house, the QB shouldnt get credit for the extra yards. I've always looked at it this way after playing highschool and a little College football. The Gino Toretta's of Miami are made to look good by the sheer skill and athletic-ism of his skill players. Another thing that made me look again at this was watching the Dan Marino high lights for his induction to the hall of fame. Congrats to Dan he was one of the greatest, but some of those passes he threw (as for any QB not just him) The receiver made the play... On a side note: Thanks for keeping this discussion professional (MSN)
I'm going to have to cede that to you--I do not have a lot experience playing football, so my opinions come squarely from the armchair rather than the field of play.
You're making this an individual thing. Everything about this sport is a team thing. A coach leads the NFL in career wins. Did he win the games? No. Did his calls directly result in winning the games? Not all of them. But he sure got credit for the wins. Should he only receive credit when his play directly makes the difference, and should a player who makes an individual play to win a game receive credit for the win otherwise? An RB scores a TD because the offensive line opened up a hole for him. If the RB tried to go by himself, he would have gotten stuffed. A WR gets single coverage because the WR on teh other side draws a double team. Where's the credit to the other WR? A safety gets a pick because the corner jammed the WR at the line. What credit does he get? There are so many things that make this a team game...by trying to say the QB shouldn't get credit for YAC's, you're saying there's no way the QB contributed to the WR's ability to score.
