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(Newsday) Knicks after TMac since summer

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by DaDaCowboy, Nov 21, 2009.

  1. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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    Then they would not get the insurance money, as long as they look like they are trying to help him rehab, they get paid.

    Tmac knows this too, and may force their hand.......I honestly think this will get really ugly after Monday.

    DD
     
  2. mdrowe00

    mdrowe00 Member

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    Just as a point of conversation, BimaThug...

    ...since I'm one of those no-nothing fans that are more partial to talent than effort....

    ..if Tracy McGrady has finally shown his true colors (selfish underachieving team cancer), what would be the point of dilly-dallying around with whatever possible trade scenarios are involving him?

    I understand, despite people's assertions to the contrary, the financial and business aspect of McGrady's contract situation...but I believe that I'm more team-oriented and team-conscious than most people here, who would like to seek out a trade for McGrady just for the sake of trading him....

    My feeling has always been about what's best for the Rockets as a team. I'm a fan. I cheer and pull for the players in uniform. I expect a good product to be put on the floor by coaching and management as best they are able. And to that point, coaches and management have to think two or three years ahead of where the team is, in order to reach the goal of winning a championship.

    My question, BimaThug, is...is there any reason that trumps the welfare of the team being jeopardized by doing this soft-shoe with McGrady by management?

    If that's what's going on at all?

    My feeling is that the organization does not want to rush McGrady back because he's not ready to perform at the level he'd be expected to perform if he were to return. McGrady FEELS he's ready to play (and may be, in some limited capacity), but the truth is that no one can know what McGrady can or can't do until he plays. I don't know or care if there are any other ulterior motives involved (money being the most obvious), but I believe that the coaching staff and management are acting in McGrady's best interests by not allowing him to rush himself back before he's had time to recover from this procedure and perform. Call me naive, but that's my feeling.

    Having said that, if there's truly no need or desire for anybody to have McGrady here for the forseeable future, than it makes no sense, to me, to keep him here. Everybody loves this team as it is, apparently, and whatever it may need in order to become an elite club can be acquired or developed without necessarily haggling over McGrady's contract....

    There's no need, in my opinion, BimaThug, to invest an inordinate amount of energy into trying to get something for McGrady's contract at all, because the entire team and coaching staff and management are proving that that's an overestimation of McGrady's value at this point.

    If the organization doesn't want anything to do with McGrady, then the best thing to do is get rid of him or let his contract expire. Of course you won't get as much for him in those scenarios as you would (possibly) by trading him, but that's the "leverage" that the Rockets haven't had before now during both Yao and McGrady's time here—competency at the levels of coaching and management who would improve the team with whatever assets they could acquire, without having to burden the team with players they don't really want or need.....

    This will be filed in the "McGrady apologist" category, BimaThug, but again...WHY does trying to squeeze anything out of McGrady's contract mean more to the Rockets as a team or organization, than getting him out of the way before he does any more damage to the fabric of the universe...?
     
  3. pmac

    pmac Contributing Member

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    Helping him rehab is one thing but if they are actually holding him out in order to appear that they are helping him rehab just for insurance money is shady to say the least, they deserve whatever punishment comes to them if that's the case. I don't think that type of deceitful business is something the NBA would take lightly. And, I'm sure there's some gray area here. I hope this is more of a dispute over what the organization and Mcgrady consider "ready".
     
  4. TMac4Life#1

    TMac4Life#1 Member

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    Well we took Ariza. He was on the Knicks. Now he is on the Rockets and everyone is on his jock strap
     
  5. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Contributing Member

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    Darko Milicic. But he is not worth T-Mac.
     
  6. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Contributing Member

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    There are going to be a lot of teams looking to sign Tracy this offseason, almost everyteam but the Rockets. I think Chicago will go after Wade, Stoudemire, James and Tracy. I think their best chances lie with the first and last in that list.
     
  7. BimaThug

    BimaThug Resident Capologist
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    I think I understand your point, but you're all over the map here.

    You don't want the Rockets to waste their time and energy with trade scenarios for Tracy, even if they definitely don't want him around, yet you admit that the Rockets could get more for T-Mac in trade than by letting his contract expire? You recognize that Tracy may be damaging to the organization, yet you explicitly do not want the organization to get rid of him in exchange for something of value?

    Believe me, if there was nothing of value that could be gotten in exchange for McGrady, then Morey will not trade him. The value may not be as great as a healthy, team-oriented Tracy McGrady, but it would still be better than nothing.

    That said, I still hold out hope that McGrady can gel with the existing rotation. I think it is in both parties' best interests to put the past behind them and win together.
     
  8. DrNuegebauer

    DrNuegebauer Member

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    We could just waive Curry? Or better, buy him out?

    It's a deal worth doing IF you get something useful.

    McGrady, Dorsey, Cook for Mobley, Curry, Hill, Chandler + an unprotected pick.

    You save $5million now in salaries, you make back a few million by flipping to the 'bonus' side of the luxury tax; Mobley makes you back around another $5million in savings from Mobley's contract.

    Effectively that 10-13million is more than Curry's 2010 salary of 11 million - so buy him out at full cost (if required) in order to add 2 pieces plus the draft option in 2011 or 12 to do something more.

    Brooks/ Lowry
    Ariza/ Chandler/ Taylor
    Ming/ Hayes/ Andersen
    Scola/ Landry/ Hill
    Battier/ Budinger

    That's not a terrible group of players is it? If Hill has any game in him, then he quickly becomes a VERY useful piece - a genuine 6'10 hard nosed PF?
     
  9. mdrowe00

    mdrowe00 Member

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    My point, BimaThug, is based on the performance of the team up to this point this season.

    My idea of "value", as it relates to a player or players, goes beyond talent or effort.

    As it stands, the best thing for the Rockets ORGANIZATIONALLY may be to get whatever's out there for McGrady, whatever the spur for moving him is (health, contract or bad seed)....

    ...but I care about the guys that suit up and play every night. There are some talented players on the court for the Rockets now (moreso than at any time over the past four seasons, collectively), because you don't win in this league if you don't have talented players.

    The team, as it stands, seems to have the mental makeup to withstand any sideshow McGrady intentionally or incidentally creates. My deal is to keep that integrity intact. No guarantee that you keep that with any other players you bring in here that you don't specifically want or can find any more of a use for than with McGrady.

    I understand the business aspect. I understand the asset management aspect. I understand that money is king.

    I don't want that line of thinking to undermine what may be in the best interests of the TEAM ON THE FLOOR. That's all.

    I don't cheer for assets or the business of the NBA. I cheer for the guys who play. I don't think that the guys that are here deserve 1) any type of unnecessary distractions and 2) to get stiffed on the "business end", because of asset management.

    The Rockets' best assets, to me, are the guys playing and proving what they can do. I'd invest in them. That may not net as much in millions from insurance payments or double-or-nothing trades. I admit to not understanding how those things takes precedence over people. Good, quality people, in this case.

    But it may mean everything to winning...
     
  10. roflmcwaffles

    roflmcwaffles Member

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    David Lee is very solid, but wouldn't fit this team because we have Scolandry, esp once Yao is back, too many bigs who can't play anything but the 4/5.

    I think Wilson Chandler, Mobley, and Al Harrington OR Hughes would make for a great trade. We still have 20 million expiring and we add another young piece that can play 2/3. Can score/board/steal.

    IMO that would make for a good trade.
     
  11. smoothie

    smoothie Jabari Jungle

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    expiring contracts have added value due to the 2010 free agent pool, but that doesn't mean they won't have value in 2011. there has always been a market for larger ending contracts. to name a few: suns trade stephon marbury to knicks for expirings. hornets trade baron davis to warriors for expirings. hawks trade dikembe mutombo to sixers for expirings. blazers trade rasheed wallace to hawks for expirings, then hawks traded him to pistons for expirings. and of course the grizzlies trade pau...

    teams have always seen large ending contracts as a chance to start over by freeing themselves from financial liability. as Jerry Colangelo said in 2004 about trading marbury and hardaway for expiring contracts

    an expiring contract with a little sweetener (a young player or picks) has always gone a long way. of course they are at a premium due to next summers free agent pool, but i dont see any reason to think that after 2010 they will have little value.

    i completely agree with you about jeffries over curry. i was simply using curry as an example. i was very impressed with your examples of trades which you posted earlier. i'm sure you can tell by this post that i would be in favor of either of your suggestions involving jeffries, a pick, and a young player.
     
    #171 smoothie, Nov 22, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2009
  12. larsv8

    larsv8 Contributing Member

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    Maybe we should take a step back and evaluate what kind of player we can get in the offseason if McGrady expires. I have heard 7 million dollars tossed around alot, is that the correct value of money we will have to spend?

    Could we possibly just outright sign guys like Camby, Brad Miller or Tyrus Thomas for that if we just held Tmac? How about a guy like Mbenga?

    I know people are pushing for a trade so we don't lose "Assets" but if we are only getting 7 million in quality players back and the rest is no poison, there is really no reason to make a trade.
     
  13. mdrowe00

    mdrowe00 Member

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    This has been my perspective on all this since the offseason, larsv8.

    The players the Rockets have now aren't what anybody would consider "overpaid", but the results are better than expected. Of course, with young players and opportunity, there still aren't any guarantees about who will become big-time players among these Rockets in the future.

    And of course, Yao will be back next season as well.

    If everyone has these concerns about asset management and salary cap figures and "bang-for-the-buck" players, there should be just as much of a need to get out from under Tracy McGrady and his contract as quickly as possible...

    You're going to need money free if you expect to keep any of the current players after the season. Moving McGrady in a trade (ANY trade) does open up some money to do that.

    But why not invest in tweaks, if the guys currently playing are getting the job done (some of them deserve the money McGrady's been stealing), and especially if the hope is that Yao Ming will be back with a much better team than anytime he's played?

    My views are a bit jaded, larsv8. I'm loyal to the guys who play well. I would rather have the guys that play and deserve a chance than wheel and deal and hope that biting the bullet on a bad deal bears fruit.....

    ...McGrady staying or going isn't anywhere near as important, to me, as it is that the Rockets are afforded the best chance to win.

    McGrady the "asset" doesn't mean anything to me. McGrady the "bad ballplayer" and "team cancer" does. If he hurts your team, you get rid of him. Swallow the loss, because that's the risk that was taken when he was signed. Your team will be better in the long run.

    Addition by subtraction, I've heard it called, larsv8.

    It just seems to me that some people's math is funny.....
     
  14. larsv8

    larsv8 Contributing Member

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    I dont think its math, I think its opinion. I respect yours, but Im on the other end.

    I think McGrady is responsible for alot the success we had and management did a poor job of getting talent around him. Now that we have talent, the stigma seems to be we don't need him, which I think is foolish.

    I don't get what the harm is with throwing him in there and see if it works. If it doesnt, so what, then trade him or let him expire. I don't buy this he is a cancer nonsense.

    Ive seen him swarmed by the other team while giving Rafer wide open shot after open shot which are clanked. I have seen this too many times to believe its on him.
     
  15. 1individual

    1individual Member

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    Al Harrington is the perfect piece needed. He can be moved to the SG position and play alongside Brooks and Lowry.
     
  16. Spooner

    Spooner Member

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  17. ImmortalD24

    ImmortalD24 Member

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    <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/G-Ecx5v8vIo&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/G-Ecx5v8vIo&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

    ^ see 1:08

    Please buy him out, Lakers could use him as either a reserve or a point forward in the starting lineup.. if he's not bought out the Lakers should definitely offer him the MLE for 2-3years IMO this summer.


    PG: Tracy McGrady/ Derek Fisher
    SG: Kobe (will play PG on defense)/ Shannon Brown
    SF: Ron Artest/ Luke Walton
    PF: Pau Gasol/ Lamar Odom
    C: Andrew Bynum/ DJ Mbenga

    :eek:
     
  18. mdrowe00

    mdrowe00 Member

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    I've seen the same thing, too, larsv8.

    I'm a "McGrady apologist", in case you didn't get the memo....

    I feel that management and the coaching staff aren't as ready to part ways with McGrady as the rest of the free world is, for just some of the same reasons you mentioned.

    And what practically everybody else has chosen to ignore, because of McGrady's behavior.

    McGrady's ego is problematic at times, but hardly unmanageable. People make a point of how Jeff Van Gundy had to chastise McGrady about his lack of effort from time to time, and conveniently use that as an excuse to explain Van Gundy's "coddling" of McGrady.

    How you're coddling a player when you give him the entire offense and expect him to decide when to score and when to set other people up (people that can't score, mind you), is beyond my small brain to figure out.....

    No Yao Ming or Tracy McGrady for the '05-06 season, and the Rockets were a lottery team. As it stands for the team now, if there's no major change in personnel, the Rockets won't make the postseason, but the worst they will have is a middle to late-first-round pick.

    All of the reasons why the Rockets couldn't improve the talent around Yao or McGrady didn't get in the way of Daryl Morey or Rick Adelman recognizing the need for it and doing whatever they could to get it.

    The team on the floor now is the direct result of those two gentlemen.

    But this is an excuse, remember that, larvs8. We're talking about Tracy McGrady. He's the waste and the hump and the prick. You take any tack to the contrary, somebody around here'll poke you in the eye with it.

    It has to be infuriating to both Morey and Adelman, to me, to have to keep wrestling with McGrady in this fashion. This is only my opinion, but I don't believe that Adelman or Morey are done with McGrady as a player. Adelman, particularly, wants McGrady able to play at a high level. And he's lamented on more than one occasion how much easier McGrady can make his job.

    Getting McGrady to see things Adelman's way is the chore here. McGrady doesn't need to trigger the offense, or handle the ball alot, or "rest" or be "lazy" on the other side of the ball. The rest of the team is a lot better than that now. They need McGrady playing well if he plays at all.

    If there are cross purposes here, larsv8, then that's what's going to cause the problems. Reinforce that McGrady doesn't play until the team feels he's ready (which lends itself more to the Rockets having an investment in him as a plyer for this team than as an asset that can be moved) with McGrady.

    Nothing McGrady says, doesn't say, does or doesn't do, will change anybody's perception of him. He's either misunderstood or a huge mistake. And none of that matters. Nobody needs to be involved in any image-restoration in regards to McGrady.

    They tried to let McGrady play when he wasn't 100% last season in order to get people to see he wasn't a weak-minded or soft player, who wanted to win and would play through an injury if he were asked, and it still turned into a divisive conflict, larsv8. That type of thing is detrimental to the team, to me.

    If you want McGrady here, but you just want him to be healthy, then convey that to him and reinforce it. Daryl Morey has said several times before this week that McGrady was overly-anxious to get back on the court. He seemed motivated and energized, and impatient. McGrady is as tempermental as they come in professional athletes. He may feel slighted or abused or misled or picked on. I'd be the last one to try to explain what may be going on with McGrady's overactive imagination, larsv8.

    But there are more than a few people who've got that figured ot, so you may want to talk to them....

    At the end of the day, I think this situation is in good hands with both Morey and Adelman. Nothing they say or do will repair or salvage McGrady's image with anyone here. They have to make a business decision about McGrady, and make it quickly and definitively.

    He either helps them so he says....
    ...or he hurts them, so he goes.....
     
  19. leebigez

    leebigez Contributing Member

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    This post cleared all the non sense about shane being one in a million :D. I think u said it right, but guys like DD think morey is burning the phone lines which I doubt. I don't care what style u say u want to play or what planet, this team is not better without tracy and yao. Even though the rockets have shown they can win without yao for long stretches, they're not better if he's injured because u didn't replace the talent. You have to replace talent with talent and dumping tracy for eddie curry and mobley's contract aint doing it. Now if a suitable offer comes up, cool, i'm down. I will trade any player if it makes the team better, but we've seen tracy and yao be forced to play with marginal talent and expected to win. Well now they have good talent and maybe we will see.
     
  20. ibm

    ibm Member

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    lee, i see you raised your hope for next year. :cool:
     

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