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New York Mag: Cognitive Dissonance

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by basso, Feb 16, 2005.

  1. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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    How 'bout it Sam? you're new yorker and W hatah- is your world view under serious attack by recent events, ala jon stewart?

    http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/columns/imperialcity/11076/index.html

    ----
    The Imperial City
    When Good News Feels Bad
    After Iraq’s vote, New York liberals are in a serious moral-ideological-emotional bind. And the only way out is to root for Bush’s victory.

    By Kurt Andersen

    After the blizzard and before the fashion shows, you may have heard, the elections in Iraq went off extremely well. Remember? Or, like most New Yorkers, perhaps you let that fact slide from your consciousness as quickly as possible . . . Hey, speaking of Fashion Week, what is it with this renaissance in corseting?

    Seriously: The success of the elections poses a major intellectual-moral-political problem for people in this city. The cognitive dissonance is palpable.

    New Yorkers think we are smarter than other Americans, that the richness and difficulty of life here give our intelligence a kind of hard-won depth and nuance and sensitivity to contradictions and ambiguity. We feel we are practically French. Most New Yorkers are also liberals. And most liberals, wherever they live, believe that they are smarter than most conservatives (particularly George W. Bush).

    And finally, most liberals and New Yorkers suspect that we may be too smart for our own good. It is a form of self-flattery as self-criticism. During these past few years, I have heard it said again and again that liberals’ ineffectiveness derives from their inability to see the world in the simple blacks and whites of the Limbaughs and Hannitys and Bushes. (Why else, the argument goes, did John Kerry lose?)

    Maybe. But now our heroic and tragic liberal-intellectual capaciousness is facing its sharpest test since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Back then, most of us were forced, against our wills, to give Ronald Reagan a large share of credit for winning the Cold War. Now the people of this Bush-hating city are being forced to grant the merest possibility that Bush, despite his annoying manner and his administration’s awful hubris and dissembling and incompetence concerning Iraq, just might—might, possibly—have been correct to invade, to occupy, and to try to enable a democratically elected government in Iraq.

    At a media-oligarchy dinner party on Fifth Avenue 72 hours after the elections, the emotions were highly mixed. The wife of a Democratic Party figure was (like me) unabashedly hopeful about what had happened in Iraq. Across the table, though, the wife of a well-known liberal actor was having none of it; instead, she complained about Fahrenheit 9/11’s being denied an Oscar nomination. And a newspaper éminence grise seemed more inclined to discuss Condoleezza Rice’s unfortunate hairstyle than the vicissitudes of Wolfowitzism. It was the night of the State of the Union speech, but as far as I know, no one (including me) ducked out of the dining room to find a TV. Who really wanted to watch Bush take his victory lap?

    Like most New Yorkers, I disagree with the Bush administration politically, temperamentally, and ontologically most of the time. Two years ago, however, unlike most New Yorkers (but probably like most Americans), concerning Iraq I went from 50-50 fence-sitting to fretful 53 percent support of an invasion. So the ups and downs of the war and occupation since have conformed, more or less, to my own deep ambivalence.

    But for our local antiwar supermajority, the Iraq elections were simply the most vertiginous moment of a two-year-long roller-coaster ride. By last November, they’d hoped the U.S. would see things their way—and it was some solace that by January, a solid majority of the country apparently agreed with New York that Iraq was a mess and a misadventure.

    Until the Iraqi vote: surprisingly smooth and inarguably inspiring and, in some local camps, unexpectedly unsettling. Of course, for all but a nutty fringe, it is not a matter of actually wishing for an insurgent victory, but rather of hating the idea of a victory presided over by the Bush team. (I may prefer the Yankees to beat the Red Sox, but I cannot bear the spectacle of Steinbrenner’s gloating.) Three months after failing to defeat Bush in our election, plenty of New Yorkers privately, half-consciously hoped for his comeuppance in Iraq’s. You know who you are. Last week, you found yourselves secretly . . . heartened—and appalled—by the stories of the Marine general who said it was “a hell of a hoot [and] fun to shoot some people” in Afghanistan, and about the possible Islamist drift of the Shiites who will now govern Iraq. When military officers show themselves to be callous warmongers, and neocon military adventurism looks untenable, certain comfortable assumptions are reaffirmed.

    Like “radical chic,” a related New York specialty, “liberal guilt” once meant feeling discomfort over one’s good fortune in an unjust world. As this last U.S. election cycle began, however, a new subspecies of liberal guilt arose—over the pleasure liberals took in bad news from Iraq, which seemed sure to hurt the administration. But with Bush reelected, any shred of tacit moral rationale is gone. In other words, feel the guilt, and let it be a pang that leads to moral clarity.

    Each of us has a Hobbesian choice concerning Iraq; either we hope for the vindication of Bush’s risky, very possibly reckless policy, or we are in a de facto alliance with the killers of American soldiers and Iraqi civilians. We can be angry with Bush for bringing us to this nasty ethical crossroads, but here we are nonetheless.

    I don’t mean to suggest, in the right-wing, proto-fascist rhetorical fashion, that every good American is obliged to support all American wars. But at this moment in this war, that binary choice of who you want to win is inescapable and needs to be faced squarely—just as being pro-war obliges one to admit that thousands of innocent Iraqis have been killed or maimed or orphaned.

    At a certain point during the Vietnam War, a majority of Americans—those of us who were in favor of unilateral U.S. withdrawal—were in a de facto alliance with the North Vietnamese, the Vietcong, and the Soviets. Unpleasant but true. People say that Bush was hell-bent on invading Iraq because his father muffed it during the Gulf War in ’91. But I think a bigger motive for Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Desert Storm was a longing, unconscious or not, to refight Vietnam victoriously.

    With liberals, Vietnam redux is all too conscious: It is irresistible to them (and to almost anyone over 40) to fit the war in Iraq into the template of Indochina, even if the parallels are only superficial. This Groundhog Day, as we all looked forward to watching a Beatle perform on TV (and on a Sunday evening in early February, just like in 1964), a fiftyish antiwar friend of mine in Park Slope dismissed the election in Iraq as “just like the election in Vietnam in 1967.”

    I didn’t know what she meant, because I had not yet read the posting by Kos, the lefty star Markos Moulitsas’s nom de blog, of a certain Times clip from 1967—about how “United States officials were surprised and heartened . . . at the size of turnout in South Vietnam’s presidential election despite a Vietcong terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting.” Kos commented, “January was the third bloodiest month for U.S. and allied troops. Will that cease now that Iraqis have voted? Nope . . . The war will continue unabated.” One senses a wish for further war. One of Kos’s regulars then wrote, “I hope I’m wrong on this,” and my disingenuousness alarm went off. When people are deeply invested in any set of analyses and predictions, do they ever sincerely hope they’re wrong?

    There may be only one important sense, finally, in which the American experience of Vietnam applies to this war: What is the number and rate of U.S. casualties we can bear, and will the new Iraqi government be able to take care of itself before we reach that unbearable number? In Iraq, 1,446 U.S. troops have died, and 10,871 have been wounded. During the worst months, the average daily casualties have been four killed and more than 40 wounded, out of a total U.S. force of around 150,000. Those are roughly the same numbers as at the end of 1965—when the war in Vietnam still had Americans’ overwhelming support. But during 1966, U.S. casualties tripled, then almost doubled in 1967, and went up by half again during 1968.

    In Iraq, American patience and stubbornness will not extend nearly that far. The prospects of a freer, better Iraq and the longer shot of a freer, better Middle East are worth some considerable American sacrifice. But we will not pay any price or bear any burden, as JFK rashly promised.

    And now the terrible business of judging the correct price requires as much empirical rigor and moral clarity as we can muster, the sort of careful, “reality-based” judgments that liberals pride themselves on being able to make better than loony Evangelicals and cunning neocon dreamers. It won’t do simply to default to our easy predispositions—against Bush, even against war. If partisanship makes us abandon intellectual honesty, if we oppose what our opponents say or do simply because they are the ones saying or doing it, we become mere political short-sellers, hoping for bad news because it’s good for our ideological investment.

    One day during the U.S. election campaign, President Bush accidentally uttered a plain truth about the war on terror. “I don’t think you can ‘win’ it,” he said, which immediately provoked attacks from the Democrats. A month later, John Kerry inadvertently told the same truth—“We have to get back to the place . . . where terrorists are not the focus of our lives, but they’re a nuisance”—whereupon Bush pounced, saying he “couldn’t disagree more.” Later the same month, the president slipped and retold the same truth—“Whether or not we can be ever fully safe . . . is up in the air”—and Kerry, inevitably, replied: “You make me president [and] it’s not going to be up in the air.”

    It was that kind of dishonest, automatic attack and counterattack that made me relieved, on November 3, when I was once again free to read and watch the news from Iraq without considering whether it was good or bad for Kerry’s chances.

    And it was the same sort of brain-dead back-and-forth that led Jon Stewart to tell Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson, live on CNN’s Crossfire last fall, that their entirely predictable pseudo-debates amounted to nothing but useless “partisan hackery.” In that instance, the new president of CNN promptly said he agreed and canceled the show. Is it too much to hope that the end of Crossfire could mark the beginning of the end of the age of Ann Coulter and Michael Moore? Probably.
     
  2. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Contributing Member

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    How about it, blasto? Are you going to keep posting your spew once the Mullah-in-charge cranks up Iraq's new demo-theocracy?
     
  3. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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    doesn't it pain you to be in the position of rooting for the death of american soldiers? apparently not...

    it's not whether you're for or against us (me, neocons, etc.), but whether you're for or against them (terrorists, tyrants, genocidal dictators). how about RMT? do you stand for anything?
     
  4. MR. MEOWGI

    MR. MEOWGI Contributing Member

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    Bush still lied to start the war, or did so ignorantly (if I give him that much credit). It should be intolerable.
     
  5. mc mark

    mc mark Contributing Member

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    I don't get it?

    Nowhere in this post do I see anything about "rooting" for the death of American soldiers?
     
  6. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    I'm not sure if I understand either this article or the post; I'm being accused of wish-crime? :confused:

    Is this just a generic "Hey this war was a great idea after all!" thread? Because we can talk about that too.




    :confused:
     
  7. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Contributing Member

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    I'm going to ignore that offensive bit about rooting for the death of American soldiers.

    Few things I'm for, off the top of my head:

    Truth in government
    War (and the corresponding death of American soldiers) as a last resort
    The Geneva Convention
    Maintaining meaningful relations with our allies
    Smaller government
    Balanced budgets
    Equal rights (even for gays)
    The Kyoto Treaty
     
  8. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    I am rooting for the Iraqi people to get it together enough, so they can kick our sorry asses out of there (and burn Bremmer's illegal and unwanted constitution).
     
  9. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Contributing Member

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    Show me where I am "rooting for the death of American soldiers"?

    I am rooting for success in Iraq, however I am extremely skeptical that it will happen.

    What I believe will happen is either a Shiite Mullah or Ahmad "Mr. Intelligence" Chalabi will become Prime Minister, and then civil war will begin. The number of lives lost during this civil war will be far greater than the number of Iraqis killed by Saddam and his henchmen.

    IMHO, if this happens, the lives lost and dollars spent in Iraq will have been nothing but a waste.

    I suggest you stop trying to put words into other people's mouths. It makes you look like a fool.
     
  10. NJRocket

    NJRocket Contributing Member

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    who is moonbeam jackson?
     
  11. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Contributing Member

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    keeley
     
  12. NJRocket

    NJRocket Contributing Member

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    thank you....carry on
     
  13. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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    the purpose of the thread, before RMT's ad hominem attack, was to wonder whether the apparent success of the iraqi elections had prompted any soul searching amongst bush's opponents about the eventual success of the iraq enterprise. jon stewart suggested as much on his show a week or so ago. did any of you read the article? the author certainly doesn't w/hold any criticism about the admin.
     
  14. mc mark

    mc mark Contributing Member

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    One election does not solve 1300 years of conflict. The Sunnis and the Shiites have been fighting each other for a long time.

    I read a very good quote the other day; "It's not this election that will usher in success, but the next one."
     
  15. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    The voting public didn't care about the state of Iraq when they re-elected Bush, and now we're supposed to believe that the liberal elite would secretly wish its downfall now? That's probably what the conservatives are hoping for: the wasting of the Dems political resources on a republic too ignorant to know what's happening outside their borders.

    How about focusing on the issues of domestic spending before the bait-n-switch took place? Bush doesn't look too pretty there.
     
  16. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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    classic moving of the goalposts. you're saying, after liberals have suggested for months that the elections were a farce, couldn't happen, were doomed to failure, yadda, yadda, yadda, that now that they have suceeded to a degree beyond what anyone could have reasonably expected, that they were meaningless?
     
  17. Oski2005

    Oski2005 Contributing Member

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    Kind of like changing the reason for the war from WMDs to democracy in Iraq. You want people to say they were wrong about this election, but did you ever say you were wrong about the WMDs? Everybody is a hypocrite, don't act like you are above it all.
     
  18. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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    if you'd like to start a thread about hypocrisy, feel free. please be sure to include Lincoln, who initially suggested the civil war was to save the union, the decided in january 1863 it was to free the slaves, but on july 4th of that year it became "so that government of the people, by the people, and for the people shall not perish from the earth." was that a flip, or a flop? did lincoln lie? do his latter statements of purpose invalidate his earlier ones?
     
  19. Oski2005

    Oski2005 Contributing Member

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    I might be rusty on my American history, but when did the Civil war "officially" become about slavery and not at all about keeping the Union together?

    You still didn't answer my question though. You are in here demanding people say they were wrong and I asked if you ever said you were wrong about WMDs. Why can't you say "I was wrong, there were no WMDs, but at least Iraq has democracy now."
     
  20. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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    actually, i'm not demanding people admit they were wrong. i'm asking whether the success of the elections might cause people to reevaluate whether bush was right. if that's a "demand", it's a fairly subtle one. as to WMDs, i will freely admit, i thought we would find them. we didn't, and if that makes me "wrong about WMD" then, i'm guilty. however, their absence now doesn't prove their absence in march 2003. nor has anyone to date explained what happened to the WMD that everyone, the US, EU, NATO, UN, France, Bill Clinton, John Kerry, and Saddam himself knew he once had. the onus was on saddam to prove he disarmed. he didn't. he gambled and lost. democrats bet the campaign on "bush lied." they gambled and lost. events are now proving bush to have been at least partly correct in his strategy. anyone bold enough to admit that perhaps they misunderestimated him?
     

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