1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

New Questions About Tillman's Death

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by gifford1967, Jul 27, 2007.

  1. gifford1967

    gifford1967 Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2003
    Messages:
    8,306
    Likes Received:
    4,653
    This story keeps getting stranger.


    AP: New details on Tillman's death

    AP Exclusive: New Documents Shed Light on Ex-NFL Player and Army Ranger Pat Tillman's Death

    MARTHA MENDOZA
    AP News

    Jul 27, 2007 01:49 EDT

    Army medical examiners were suspicious about the close proximity of the three bullet holes in Pat Tillman's forehead and tried without success to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player's death amounted to a crime, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press.


    "The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described," a doctor who examined Tillman's body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators.

    The doctors _ whose names were blacked out _ said that the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away.


    Ultimately, the Pentagon did conduct a criminal investigation, and asked Tillman's comrades whether he was disliked by his men and whether they had any reason to believe he was deliberately killed. The Pentagon eventually ruled that Tillman's death at the hands of his comrades was a friendly-fire accident.

    The medical examiners' suspicions were outlined in 2,300 pages of testimony released to the AP this week by the Defense Department in response to a Freedom of Information Act request.

    Among other information contained in the documents:

    _ In his last words moments before he was killed, Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire to shut up and stop "sniveling."

    _ Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments.

    _ The three-star general who kept the truth about Tillman's death from his family and the public told investigators some 70 times that he had a bad memory and couldn't recall details of his actions.

    _ No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene _ no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.

    The Pentagon and the Bush administration have been criticized in recent months for lying about the circumstances of Tillman's death. The military initially told the public and the Tillman family that he had been killed by enemy fire. Only weeks later did the Pentagon acknowledge he was gunned down by fellow Rangers.

    With questions lingering about how high in the Bush administration the deception reached, Congress is preparing for yet another hearing next week.

    The Pentagon is separately preparing a new round of punishments, including a stinging demotion of retired Lt. Gen. Philip R. Kensinger Jr., 60, according to military officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because the punishments under consideration have not been made public.

    In more than four hours of questioning by the Pentagon inspector general's office in December 2006, Kensinger repeatedly contradicted other officers' testimony, and sometimes his own. He said on some 70 occasions that he did not recall something.

    At one point, he said: "You've got me really scared about my brain right now. I'm really having a problem."


    Tillman's mother, Mary Tillman, who has long suggested that her son was deliberately killed by his comrades, said she is still looking for answers and looks forward to the congressional hearings next week.

    "Nothing is going to bring Pat back. It's about justice for Pat and justice for other soldiers. The nation has been deceived," she said.

    The documents show that a doctor who autopsied Tillman's body was suspicious of the three gunshot wounds to the forehead. The doctor said he took the unusual step of calling the Army's Human Resources Command and was rebuffed. He then asked an official at the Army's Criminal Investigation Division if the CID would consider opening a criminal case.

    "He said he talked to his higher headquarters and they had said no," the doctor testified.


    Also according to the documents, investigators pressed officers and soldiers on a question Mrs. Tillman has been asking all along.

    "Have you, at any time since this incident occurred back on April 22, 2004, have you ever received any information even rumor that Cpl. Tillman was killed by anybody within his own unit intentionally?" an investigator asked then-Capt. Richard Scott.

    Scott, and others who were asked, said they were certain the shooting was accidental.

    Investigators also asked soldiers and commanders whether Tillman was disliked, whether anyone was jealous of his celebrity, or if he was considered arrogant. They said Tillman was respected, admired and well-liked.

    The documents also shed new light on Tillman's last moments.

    It has been widely reported by the AP and others that Spc. Bryan O'Neal, who was at Tillman's side as he was killed, told investigators that Tillman was waving his arms shouting "Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!" again and again.

    But the latest documents give a different account from a chaplain who debriefed the entire unit days after Tillman was killed.

    The chaplain said that O'Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman's side, "crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God's not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling ..."

    ___

    Associated Press reporters Scott Lindlaw in Las Vegas and Lolita C. Baldor in Washington contributed to this story.

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2007/07/new_details_on_tillmans_death.php
     
  2. mc mark

    mc mark Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 1999
    Messages:
    26,195
    Likes Received:
    471
  3. ROXRAN

    ROXRAN Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2000
    Messages:
    18,814
    Likes Received:
    5,219
    I go target shooting all the time, the only way to hit someone 3 times in the forehead in close proximity is up close where there is no doubt of who he is...The exception is if he were far away, and a massisve amount of rounds found him...then again, he would have close proximity bullet holes all over his body...

    Is that the case?...Who knows, I didn't realize he was hit 3 times in the forehead with the holes close together....If he was hit many times in other places, I'd say he was hit by a barrage of friendly fire unfortunately...

    If only in the head, It doesn't seem right....
     
  4. Surfguy

    Surfguy Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 1999
    Messages:
    24,560
    Likes Received:
    12,838
    I think it is pretty clear now that the true story will never come out.

    So, what is even the point of harping on it any more?

    At this point, I just don't give a sh*t because it's all a bunch of conjecture.

    Pat Tillman is not coming back. As much as we want to prevent future similar incidents, we all know it doesn't work that way. Cover-ups happen in every war regardless. They never learn anything from it.
     
  5. jo mama

    jo mama Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2002
    Messages:
    14,585
    Likes Received:
    9,098
    didnt investigators initially rule it criminal homicide?

    and why did they burn his uniform as well as his personal effects like his journal (in which he wrote very critically of the war)?

    wasnt he becoming a very outspoken critic of the iraq war and even planning to meet w/ noam chomsky when he got back home?
     
  6. gifford1967

    gifford1967 Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2003
    Messages:
    8,306
    Likes Received:
    4,653


    ...................................................
     
  7. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 1999
    Messages:
    65,170
    Likes Received:
    32,876

    it would be one of many mysteries brushed aside so this admin can have plausible denial in all things

    The truth now has officially become meaningless
    Expedience and Group Thought are king

    Rocket River
     
  8. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2005
    Messages:
    21,310
    Likes Received:
    11,755
    yeh support the troops!!
     
  9. Surfguy

    Surfguy Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 1999
    Messages:
    24,560
    Likes Received:
    12,838
    gifford, you mean the accountability of a general losing a star or an officer losing a rank? Big whoop. That's like taking a crap without having toilet paper to wipe.
     
  10. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    43,783
    Likes Received:
    3,705
    he actually did lose money on his monthly pension payment
     
  11. Surfguy

    Surfguy Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 1999
    Messages:
    24,560
    Likes Received:
    12,838
    Hence, he couldn't afford toilet paper to wipe with. :D

    I still say accountability doesn't mean much in cases like this...even with loss of pay.

    They have had years to work out preventing friendly fire incidents and, yet, they still happen.
     
  12. gifford1967

    gifford1967 Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2003
    Messages:
    8,306
    Likes Received:
    4,653

    The demotion of the general is just the start of what the accountability should be.

    The big issue isn't the friendly fire incident (if that's what it was). These happen, there are operating procedures to minimize them, but in a chaotic battle environment, mistakes are going to happen. The big issue is the cover up after the fact. This was not a mistake, it was a conscious choice. Punishing those involved will serve as warning to those who would engage in future cover ups and make them less likely.

    Or we could just say wtf, this sh_t happens all the time. Who cares. Nothing will ever change, so why even bother.
     
  13. DonkeyMagic

    DonkeyMagic Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    21,604
    Likes Received:
    3,487
    i dont think i need to know how many bullet holes and where. seems a bit sadistic to care...let the investigators do their job and leave it to them to know the gory details.

    RIP
     
  14. Surfguy

    Surfguy Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 1999
    Messages:
    24,560
    Likes Received:
    12,838
    Exactly...the punishment rarely fits the crime when it comes to people in the military. That is the real nature of the problem in this case and with the military in general IMO.
     
  15. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 1999
    Messages:
    23,103
    Likes Received:
    10,115
    Where do you live? I only ask because If I'm ever on trial I want to avoid a jury pool with you in it.

    And on the matter of investigators being trusted to just do their job without any accountability or oversight, this guy would have agreed with you...

    [​IMG]
     
  16. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 1999
    Messages:
    23,103
    Likes Received:
    10,115
    So, serious questions about the death. Serious questions about the investigation. Serious questions about what the Pentagon told the White House. Serious questions about White House involvement.

    And according to the administration, the serious questions about the investigation, Pentagon and White House are subject to executive privilege?

    Again, all you Bush/Cheney acolytes... I dare you to defend the cover up and White House involvement in the death of an American soldier. You can't because there's no reason for WH involvement. And there's no reason for any claim of executive privilege to be applied to the death of an American soldier on the battlefield half a world away.

    I don't care about any extenuating circumstances. I don't care that he may have been a jerk. I don't care that he may have been an atheist. I don't care that he was a celebrity. He was in uniform and killed under suspicious circumstances and the administration used his death to further their propaganda. We are all owed an explanation for everything that happened before and after his death.

    I admit I have a visceral reaction to this, similar to what I think about the administration lying about the health hazards encountered by firefighters and other rescue workers at the Pile. Both events shine a bright light on what is valued by this administration and expose the hypocrisy of their rhetoric and the emptiness of their actions in a way that makes me want to slam my head into a brick wall.
     
  17. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 1999
    Messages:
    23,103
    Likes Received:
    10,115
    <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Y-EwReGl88o"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Y-EwReGl88o" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
     
  18. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 1999
    Messages:
    23,103
    Likes Received:
    10,115
    <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/iSqLvCQtyxo"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/iSqLvCQtyxo" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

    (Edit: Because of the actions of some on this board... and before I get accused by them of doing similar stuff, I should say that I saw both videos on a Kos story. I think the first fits the thread well and I don't want anyone to think I shot the video or wrote the testimony or anything else. I thought the second went well with the Digby post and it was my own idea to combine the two into one post here.)
     
    #18 rimrocker, Jul 27, 2007
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2007
  19. pppbigppp

    pppbigppp Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2007
    Messages:
    608
    Likes Received:
    8
    Yeah, let's hush away the gruesome details like how the guy is a non-Jesus-worshiping liberal Chomsky fan, who would had vote for Kerry and is against the Iraq War (He signed up for Afghanistan). Quick, put the kids away! They aren't mature enough to handle facts!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSqLvCQtyxo
     
  20. jo mama

    jo mama Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2002
    Messages:
    14,585
    Likes Received:
    9,098
    the investigators were silenced - that is the whole point.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now