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New NBA stats category needed: DOMINANCE

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by ruyun5, Dec 8, 2002.

  1. ruyun5

    ruyun5 Member

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    The new statistics in this category all measure the dominance factors in the game.

    <ul>
    <li> <b>Altered Play. </b> A play altered in the opposing team. Example: Gary Payton/Tony Parker/Allen Iverson drives to the basket, notice a big fella in the middle. Oops: 1) Pass the ball to someone outside for a lower percentage shot. 2) Force to shoot in awkward position and miss.

    <li> <b> Throw-It-Down Slam. </b> An offensive rebound and followed by throw-it-dowm slam. Note a tip is not in this category. Example: <italics> (Against Spurs) Six of Yao's 18 boards were offensive, and not a one was bigger than when he cleaned glass with just over 3 minutes to go, snaring a Francis miss and throwing it back down for the jam, drawing a roar from the crowd. </italics>

    <li> <b> Minutes Double-Teamed. </b> Self-explained. Example: Most of the fourth quarter with San Antonio where Ming got double-teamed before he even gets the ball. Benefit: according to pigeon-hole principle, one of the team member is wide open.

    <li> <b> Opposing Team Strategy Planned. </b> It refers to the fact that whether a player forces the opponsing team to plan a strategy against him in advance, for a better chance of winning.

    </ul>

    Welcome to add others. :D
     
    #1 ruyun5, Dec 8, 2002
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2002
  2. arno_ed

    arno_ed Member

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    it is kinda difficult to measure these factors
     
  3. jh3lau

    jh3lau Member

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    minutes triple-team

    finger pointing acknowledgement

    run down court on fast break

    minutes his arms putting up
     
  4. Dr of Dunk

    Dr of Dunk Clutch Crew

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    I'd call the category : the Hakeem Rating.

    ;)
     
  5. snorkeljim

    snorkeljim Member

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    How many cups of starbuck he drinks per game too for another NBA new stat :D Get real man.
     
  6. ruyun5

    ruyun5 Member

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    Hmm. I don't think Hakeem is as big as Ming in defensive dominace in the paint. He is mostly mentioned about his unstoppable shots. Correct me if I am wrong. I haven't seen many Hakeem's games than Ming's games.

    In fact, from the last few games I watched, even Shaq lacks in this category (defensive presence in the paint to alter play) than Ming. Just compared Rocket's opponent field goal percentage with Lakers in the last few games...
     
  7. myputersux

    myputersux Member

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    Ill make allowances for the fact you arent familiar with the NBA before YM.

    Hakeem was an absolute monster in changed shots. When you have a man as quick and athletic and tall as Hakeem was...He used to change shots constantly. Believe it...it happened.

    Shaq also dominates and changes shots...you dont see it as much because everyone knows its a bad idea to challenge him in the paint.
     
  8. myputersux

    myputersux Member

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  9. drapg

    drapg Member

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    I like the idea of a new category similar to "quarterback pressures" in football. Similarly, a "shots altered" would work.

    quarterback pressure is to sack as shots altered is to block.
     
  10. AroundTheWorld

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    Hakeem is the all-time NBA leader in blocked shots.
     
  11. coolpet

    coolpet Member

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    are you a CS major?pigeon-hole principle....................:eek:
     
  12. codell

    codell Member

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    :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :confused: :mad:

    Im speechless .............
     
  13. drapg

    drapg Member

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    I'm letting that slide b/c I'm assuming he's a new Rockets fan.
     
  14. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    Hakeem averaged like 4.5 blocks per game some seasons. He has the most blocks in NBA history. His defense was probably just as big as his offense in the championships.

    So far it doesn't look like Yao Ming has his shot blocking ability, his short arms keep him from blocking some shots, but he can still change lots of shots. He has a long way to go before he is as good as Hakeem Olajuwon. Hakeem averaged 20+ points, 10+ rebounds, 3+ blocks, and 1.5 steals right out of college and for most of his career.
     
  15. ruyun5

    ruyun5 Member

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    The last time I saw Hakeem play was in 1994-1995 when the Rockets swept the Magic. But I don't remember anything about those games or how Hakeem must humiliated Shaq...

    The more interesting question will be: will Ming achieve the similar level to Hakeem? Will he even surpass Hakeem? It is all too early to tell. He does have a height advantage though. From the last 10 games or so I watched, Ming is argubally the most indimidating player in the paint defensively. Against opponents who is .500 or better, we hold Seattle to 72 (avg 95.4), San Antonio to 75 (avg 91.8), New Orleans to 84 (avg 95.7), Philedephia to 72 (avg 95.3). Kings's blow out is the only exception. Kings is playing much better than other teams and we had 21 TOs in that game, resulted tons of layup and dunks.
     
  16. Like A Breath

    Like A Breath Member

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    Ming doesn't have the reflexes that Hakeem had. Hakeem could get his arms up and swat a block away in an instant. A better comparison to Hakeem's defense is Ben Wallace. Hakeem blocked many shots that the opponent didn't think he could block. He would come out of nowhere and get a steal or block. You could make a case that Ming's size makes him more intimidating, though.
     
  17. declan32001

    declan32001 Member

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    I don't know if assistant coaches around the league track such a thing, but I know in Dream's early years it was being tracked and quoted in the Post & Chron. But I know Dream was unique and there has to be a reason for a team to pay attention to such a "stat". I remember a comment being made re: Dream "It's irritating when those 'altered shots' go in". Aye, there's the rub. As an official stat, it's too subjective, but you can bet coaches when they breakdown video they're looking at it when relevant (7'6 guy is relevant). Ok, let's see if the Chron. or the Rockets really watches this board: Altered shots, visions of "Dreams", show added impact, put fannies in the seats, Les needs a hug. Well, why not?
     
  18. Zboy

    Zboy Member

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    Oh mannn...you missed something big if you havent watched him in his prime. I am a huge Yao fan, a really huge fan but I will be ecstatic if he comes close to anywhere being the complete defensive presense that Hakeem was.

    Everyone knows that Hakeem is the all time block leader. Great! But did you know that he is also in the TOP TEN IN ALL TIME STEALS list in NBA? Hellooo?!?!! Anyone find this ridiculous? I remember Bill Walton go over this in a game on national television and he was just dumbfounded. A center has no business being in that list BUT since he is, what does that tell you about him?

    Hakeem had the quickest hands of almost any big man to ever play the game with cat-like reflexes. A lot of times guards would dribble around him only to find out that they had been stripped from behind while the dribble was on the ground!! Penny Hardaway drives baseline around Hakeem to go for a layup or dunk in NBA Finals game against Rockets in 94-95. whoops! He forgot the ball, Hakeem had it in his hands. I have seen Hakeem strip the ball from guards while they have tried to go one on one against him on the perimeter!! Helloo?!?! Hakeem was a freak.

    A big problem for post player was protecting the ball in his hands when covered by Hakeem one on one. A lot of times Hakeem would poke the ball lose even before the player made his move. Most of these balls would recoevered by Rockets guards or forwards so Hakeem would not even be credited for these steals!!

    Ok so uptil now we have only discussed steals. Now how about blocks? The man was only 6-10 but he is #1 on alltime list of blocks. Amazing! He was a master of timing his jump. And most of the time he would meet the opposing player on the apex of the jump. But do you know the most interesting thing about his block shots? He would block them and try to deflect the ball to himself or his teammates! Watch Hakeem's games and you will see that most of his blocks turned into fast break points for Rockets.

    Hakeem would never give up on one block on the same play. On numerous times I have seen him block same or multiple players on the same play. Believe it! He was that quick on recovery. I have seen him deny guards on drive while they were both air-borne, making the guard drop the ball to the big man. The big man thinks he has an easy dunk, only to see Hakeem block the shot. All the opposing players have this look how, "how did he recover that quick?" as muttered by NBA TV announcers. Best example of this, watch Game 4 of Sun-Rockets series in 93-94. Hakeem rejetcs both KJ and Barkley on same play and Houston gets an easy 2 on the other end. Entire Phoenix arena is in awe. This was done in the last minutes of the game. He had like 3-4 blocks in last couple of minutes. Same thing in Game 5 against the Spurs in Game 5 of 94-95 playoffs. Multiple blocks In last minutes.

    Hakeem would get a lot of blocks coming from weakside or by surprising the opposing players. But when a big man needed to be stopped in clutch situations, Hakeem would take on the challenge. 2 rejections on Kemp while Kemp tries ot take Hakeem one on one in the post on the last play in 97 playoffs. This was when Kemp was a beast in the post but what was Kemp or George Karl thinking?!? Did Karl not get an upclose look at Hakeem in 92-93 playoff series when he would get 7-8 blocks a game against his team?? When playing the Jazz in the series when they won the championships, Hakeem would switch on Malone and shut him down in the closing minutes of the game. I still think Rockets should have put Hakeem on Malone instead of Barkley but oh well. Point of all this. Hakeem could stop his man one on one as well as cover for all his teammates mistakes.

    Hakeem has had some spectacular blocks which sometime seem inhumane....93-94 Portland series, Hakeem chases down a streaking Rod Strickland from midcourt and emphatically blocks his shot. To this day, Strickland and coach Adelman still have a look of disbelief when reminded of that play. He has had similar block on Keven Johnson, and bryon Russel. He has also had blocks where he would jump, and just snatch the ball on the apex and bring it down in his hand with just one hand. Ask Magic Johnson about how it feels to be on the receiveing end of such a play.

    The most amazing thing about all this was that Hakeem never seemed to give up on the defensive play until his team had the ball or the other team scored. This was for every single play. He would go for every steal or block he could. He was a one-man harassing crew for the opposing time. At times it seemed like he was guarding the entire opposing team all by himself.

    And the Best of all? Hakeem became that much better defesively when it counted the most! When the ROckets desperately needed a stop, he would give them one. When the game was close in the closing minutes of the game, 2 things I could count on was: Hakeem stopping the other team and Hakeem scoring on the other end. He was a clutch defensive stopper.... Block on Starks on the perimeter on the last play by Knicks in 93-94 Finals.... Shutdown of Kemp in games waning seconds... Shutdown of Ewing in finals...Shutdown of David Robinson the MVP...

    Yao Ming is a defensive "presence" in the paint because of his size. He is blessed. And I think he will be one of the top defensive players in the game for next couple of years. I am rooting for Yao!! But he just does not have the balance, quickness, recovery, quick hands and athleticsm of Hakeem to make a similar defensive impact on the game.
     
    #18 Zboy, Dec 8, 2002
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2002
  19. Rockets2K

    Rockets2K Clutch Crew

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    I saw a stat a week back or so that said that YM's wingspan was 7'1". It was posted in cm form, but someone had converted it.

    If *that* is short arms to you, I would hate to see what long arms are.

    ruyun,
    YM may become as intimidating in the paint as Hakeem was in the future. But not right now. I also wouldnt credit YM with the low offensive output of other teams. It is a team defensive effort that is helping keep teams from scoring alot.

    Give YM some more time to get stronger and train longer with NBA coaches, and he *could* possibly become a similar presence in the paint just like Hakeem was.

    With the new-found team game going on and the best new bigman on our team, we are headed places baaby! Just kick back and enjoy the ride.:D
     
  20. DavidS

    DavidS Member

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    Defense was Hakeems strong point during
    the 80's.

    You need to watch some game film of that!

    84-92 was his best defensive years. He could
    jump out of the building.

    After 92, his vert seemed to lessen, but still
    effective.

    Hakeem had defense because of his athletic
    ability.

    Yao has defense because of his size (some
    althetic ability).

    There is a difference.
     
    #20 DavidS, Dec 8, 2002
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2002

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