When was the last time the NBA finals was exciting? I was thinking about this and realized you had to go back to Utah-Chicago - Jordan's last hurrah, and the end to a great age - the class of '84 pretty much at the end of their careers. So the past 8 years have been kind of dull with more drama around Kobe then anything else - and the sleepiness of three Laker championships that were uninspiring, and a SA and Detroit team no one will remember for capturing the way were in the 80's and 90's. However; looking at the league today, and it reminds me a lot of the league back in mid 80's. You have a plethora of immensely talented players in the league right now: Le Bron James - exceeding all the hype Kobe Bryant - love him or hate him, he's still the best shooting guard of the decade Dwayne Wade - Already better then Gary Payton ever was Steve Nash - makes Stockton look like Matt Maloney Tracy MacGrady - MVP player if not for his back Dirk Nowitzki - who thought the next Larry Bird would have been German? I don't think I've seen a young group of superstars in the league like this since that class...and more interesting - they all have signiture personalities or styles. They are all *fun* to watch. They are as much entertaining as they are great ball players.
Ultimately, I'd love to see another East/West rivalry be born in the same mold as the Lakers/Celtics of 20-ish years ago. Here's to hoping it'll be the Rockets vs. Cavs or something.
It really is a good time for the NBA. This first round of playoff games was tremendous. Almost all of the series were exciting. I think it runs in cycles. It just takes everyone enough time to get over the last super talented crop of stars, before they will accept the new ones. It is exciting
Congratulations on making one of the most absurd statements I've ever seen/heard/read. Nash has had a couple seasons now where he may be on the level of John Stockton, but he certainly hasn't been better than Stockton. What's he done that Stockton hasn't done? The real difference between John Stockton and Steve Nash is this though - STOCKTON DID IT FOR TWENTY YEARS, NOT THREE OR FOUR LIKE NASH! I'm sorry, but Steve Nash isn't fit to carry Stockton's jock strap, and the very fact that he has won two MVP trophies to Stockton's 0 is a perfect argument against your whole post. It says to me that the talent of the league today is nowhere near what it was when Stockton couldn't win MVP's because there were guys like Jordan, Dream, Magic, Robinson and even Stockton's teammate, Malone, around. I don't agree that Wade is better than Payton ever was either, but I'm wondering why you're even making the comparison when Wade and Payton play different positions. Incidentally, when it's all said and done, Payton will be remembered as a better point guard than Steve Nash too. He's had the better over-all career by far.
Apparently I failed to make it clear that I hate Stockton's guts. I do. I harbor hatred for that jazzhole in every cell in my body. Nonetheless, he was better than Nash.
Cough, cough. I never know that Matt is a HOF. Dirk will never be in the same class of Bird. Bird was clutch and Dirk is not. Wade, he is vastly overrated, a star player not a superstar. Again Steve Nash winning the MVP for two years in a row tells you the overall quality of league play right now. It's ok but don't compare to the golden era where true stars shone.
The way these guys are dominating and changing a game - it's unreal and legendary. Stockton rarely dominated a game. But you look at these players, and they put their imprint all over the game. And that reminds me of the legendary players. Notice that I didn't mention elton brand, or kevin garnett...i'm not talking about numbers here...even though these guys are putting up monstrous numbers. It's not about getting into an argument on who is better - Dirk or Bird. It's that you have all these players with legendary character in the league right now and that represents a truely golden time for fans of the NBA. Stuff like this is rare. Enjoy it man. It's special!
Stockton definitely imposed his will on many games, including some big ones. The thing that blew me away about that guy was that he was always passing first, but when they needed a big shot from him, he hit it. You got the feeling the guy could drop 50 if he felt like it. I felt that way watching him for his whole career. Nash is at a similar place right now, and I'm not arguing that, but Stockton made it to the Finals and his team gave Jordan's Bulls a good run. Nash hasn't been to the Finals yet and it wasn't until last year that he began dominating games on occasion. I don't think Nash dominates games often either, unless you're saying he dominates via his penatrating and dishing to the right guy, and in that case you're even crazier, because Stockton did that as well or better than anyone ever has. Stockton was also just as capable of hitting the open shot or driving for a much needed layup. I agree with the poster that thinks you've forgotten how good Bird is, and I think that applies to Stockton and some other players too. This has been a really exciting playoffs, but Stockton was better than Nash, Payton was better than Wade and Bird was better than Dirk.
NewYorker, whenever you venture into these waters, expect to be aimed at. Nash the last two seasons is better than Stockton at his best. No argument at all from me. But Stockton's career blows Nash away, so far. If Nash keeps it up he definitely has a chance to reach Stockton's level. Right now, Nash sees the floor better than any PG I've ever seen play except Magic. But he needs to keep it up a few more years. Dirk isn't Bird by a longshot. When Dirk becomes unstoppable in the clutch (with his shooting or passing) then we can bring up Bird. With Bird, you just KNEW he was going to make something good happen for the Celtics in crunch time of playoff games. Dirk isn't there yet. Dirk lacks the savvy of Bird. Wade will likely surpass Payton but he isn't there yet. You are dead on regarding LeBron and Kobe. To your main point: When it comes to star power, the NBA is looking good right now, though a lot rides on LeBron. There are so many talented and fun players it's great for us basketball fans. I'll excuse you this time for leaving out Yao. Don't let it happen again.
there may be alot of talented players in the league right now, but the role players are no where in the same class as those in the 80s and mid 90s. as exciting as some of the stars are today, i am still not very interested.
I disagree. Eddie Jones, Robert Horry, Sam Cassell, Manu Genobli, Ben Wallace, Sean Marion, Barbosa, Jason Terry, Lamar Odom, Kirk Hinrich, and the list goes on and on. These guys don't give an inch to the role players of the past.
Statistically, you are also very wrong. Stockton had 8 seasons where he average more assists than Nash's career high. Alternatively, Nash's 18.8 ppg this year is better than any of Stockton's years. Nonetheless, even Nash's current MVP seasons can't compare to Stockton's 88-92 seasons. Take the 88-89 season. 17.1 ppg, 13.6 apg, 3.0 rpg, 3.21 spg (Larry Hughes led the league this year at 2.83 pg). Nash has only broken the 1 spg barrier once in his career. I hate John Stockton. And I love watching Steve Nash play. And agree with both of his MVP awards (though also agree that each one could have gone to other players fairly, as well). But on both a career level and a best season level, Nash still isn't at Stockton's level. Why has Nash won 2 MVP awards in a row? Imo, because more than anything else, he is responsible for an entire shift in style in the NBA, while having great stats, being a great team leader and winner (at least in the regular season).
Kudos on an excellent point. I'm opposed to Nash's selection as MVP but you just made it easier for me to accept. (even though it seems like that really only justifies 1 MVP trophy) I must admit, as great as a player like Stockton was, he never did that. I'll still always find it difficult to accept that Nash won two MVP trophies though, especially when Isiah Thomas doesn't have one. But I digress. I just wanted to acknowledge a great point.
Very good statistical points. Maybe I'm underestimating Stockton but I doubt it. I saw the guy play so many games against us it isn't even funny. IMO, Nash captures the attention of the defense more than Stockton. He also penetrates and finishes far better than Stockton ever did because Stock was just too tiny. On offense, I think Nash plays better without the ball. Nash is more of a 3 point threat. Stockton was probably a better defender, though I remember him getting torched quite a bit. He was very good with his hands and he knew when to gamble. But I remember Terry Porter lighting him up like a torch during one playoff series and Stock was basically helpless to defend him because of his size (6'1 175 lbs). Of course, Nash can't stop anybody either. Stock was also a very gritty (i.e, dirty) player. The guy would do almost ANYTHING for an edge which is why so many Rockets fans dislike him. Bottom line: If I was building a team for one season, I'd still take Nash either of last two years over Stockton at his peak. But career-wise, Nash needs to put in another 8-9 seasons of very good basketball. My 2 cents on the MVP debate is LeBron or Kobe should have won it. Nash didn't finish the season strong enough for me. The way LeBron lifted his game up to another level late in the season and carried his team to that 9 game winning streak was something special.
I agree with NewYorker for the most part, but the point I would make is that we're at the dawn of a new Golden Era; I said as much last year in some other thread.
Nash wouldn't last a season if the hand-check rule was in place. Stockton was one of the toughest guards I'd ever seen play. This guy sets picks on BIG MEN!! His defense was much better as well though in his later years the speedier guards were hurting him pretty bad but he played smart still. Nash is exciting and I like his style and he's a great player but as much as I hate to say it. STockton was much better still. I don't like kobe and lebron but they have mad game, but I don't know why I hate those two with such big egos but I liked Michael Jordan so much.
