That really sucks. All I got to see was the box score, but geez, can anybody see why Vancouver wanted Francis to play the 2 spot. I say this a lot, so sorry for being redundant, but I'm starting to imagine a line-up with pure point guard (I guess Drew will work for now, as will Norris), Steve Francis at the two, Shandon Anderson at the three, Kenny Thomas at the four, and I guess Cato at the five spot. Steve Francis from what I've seen just plain f's up a lot with turnovers. I know he's a rookie, but if his handle, passing, and other reasons for turnovers don't improve, then he needs to play 2 guard and get over it. A player can't (or shouldn't) put too much blame on refs for bad calls leading to turnovers-so please don't start the "rookie don't get respect argument" (it's fair in some respects, but overly inflated; Stevie does palm the ball). Oh yeah, the rest of the team didn't help any, but a point guard needs to be held to a higher standard (see Bibby's stats for the game).
Pass: You saw the boxscore and I saw the game live here in Vancouver. You are dead right. Francis does palm the ball (carries it on his hip, too) and he yapped at the ref too much when the game was on the line. The guy is every bit as fast as Iverson and if the Rockets had him coming off screens as a 2 his fast-improving outside shot would have him scoring 30+ every night plus he would get 6 or 7 boards and still get 5 or 6 assists without all the turnovers. He made two crucial mistakes down the stretch tonight. First, he could have run the clock down to under 3 seconds before he started his drive (or he would have had his man backed off for a three -- which was looking superb tonight). The Grizzlies were purposely letting him walk into the basket in the last minute or so and just trying not to foul him. The second mistake was playing Bibby for the outside shot on the game winner. Bibby was able to drive the lane on him most of the evening but his outside shot wasn't going very good. Why wouldn't Francis think the guy is going to go to his best move (the drive) and even if he misses, he has a better chance to get fouled? Bibby exhibited the court sense that Francis lacks as a point guard by timing his drive perfectly. For those Rockets fans that just assume Francis will magically develop it in his second year, look at how Jason Williams is still struggling with the concept. Francis has the hops, the handle (even if it's somewhat illegal)and the attitude but one questions his brains sometimes. If I were Rudy, I'd sit the young man down and say, "Look, do you want to win or do you want to be the hero? You can't chase two rabbits at the same time. Son, you're now going to be the best 2 guard in the league on a championship team and sometimes you can still play point." Pass,we've been down this road before on this board with the misunderstood discussion about the difference between Bibby the "classic" point guard and Francis the Marbury-style guard. The gunslinger posters on your board jumped to the conclusion that I was saying Bibby is a better overall player than Francis when I'm trying to tell them he's just not playing the right position (or he has to change his style quite radically). This game was a classic example -- Francis feeds his team masterfully in a quiet manner for almost the whole first half and a bit of the third quarter, then, as soon as the Grizzlies show a little life, you can almost see him say to himself, "Man, I'm the best player on this court, none of these dishrags can even touch me, I'll just light it up and win this thing single.... oops, what happened to that lead. Okay, I'll just score everytime down the court...oops, I didn't get a call. Oops, these guys are pretty good athletes, too...oops, that slow Bibby guy went right around me." Francis is wasted at point guard no matter how much his ego wants it. I know this kind of truth really hurts from a Vancouver fan but sometimes you get a better viewpoint from outside a team. I readily admit I loathe Steve Francis as a person, of course, because of his "I'm bigger than your puny franchise/city/country" attitude towards us (and so would you guys if someone else had done what he did to our team to the Rockets/ Houston/America) but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate his talent or I can't clearly see when it is being wasted. ------------------
Man, I couldn't agree with you more. Francis is not as good of a point guard as Bibby, but Francis is a better overall player than Bibby. I've said this a ton of times, and all it does is piss of the Francis badwagoneers. If he wants to play point guard, then he needs to learn how to play point guard. We need to get him a veteran point guard mentor: KJ, Mark Jackson, Derek Harper, Mark Price-any older guy that teach him how to run the offense without creating the need to play defense so fast (and carelessly). Now obviously some of these old guys can't play for us, but maybe it'd help if the Rockets picked up an old guy as an assistant ala the Clippers, who have Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on the bench and in practice to work with Olowokandi and Closs. Francis can play the point. He needs time and teaching. A stronger supporting cast would help, too. But everybody should quit making Francis out to be a savior when so many times this season he's been the cross.
HEAD SHAKE, My hiccups just stopped, so I think I might be able to have an intelligent conversation with you now. 1st: the 3 sec thing is true, but that is really nit-picky to call it a mistake. b) I disagree with the assessment that the Francis d on Bibby was Steve's mistake. Bibby should have been trapped with time running down like that to force a pass. A shot after a passs might not even get off in time, much less in rhythm. Trapping is the better defense on bibby there than Francis doing anything by himself. Get the ball out of Bibby's hot hand!!!! iii. I think your are stereotyping Francises espn highlights and assuming he can't pass. I'm sorry. Francis is an outstanding interior passer. He loves it. You do not see enough of these Rockets games to come here and stereotype Francis into a SG. You are wrong, and do not need to rely on my comments, but I do ask that with your open-mindedness (which I admire), you should consider the statements of other's on this board who watch every game, and stop assuming we are lying to ourselves. Stevie Franchise has wonderful dish instints as well as wraparound, interior passing eyesight. Those passes truly conjure up images of Isiah. His assists are down now because the NBA started trapping him in 3-point land starting the week after he won Player of the Week honors. They took the ball out of his hands. Go back and look at his assist totals in January. He will rise to those numbers again. Because he loves to play PG "the right way", as he always says and Rudy says of him. Allow us to challenge this assumption of yours that is based on less eye-witness testimony that many here; you might appreciate Francis a little more. cheers man...I was looking forward to you coming back. Anyone who takes on an entire BBS for the fun of it is alright in my book. BTW: No offense, but I hate all the Grizzlie players. Of course, that is out of respect for our mutual vision of Vanc and Hou being fierce rivals at the top of their division, soon. Besides, it's not as fun hating Stockton and Malone now. We need new blood... ...and more tomatoes
The days of the 'true PG' or 'pure PG' are passing. They're not gone, mind you, but we've been entering a new phase in NBA guard play for several seasons now. Think about it: how many 'pure', 'pass-first' floor-general types are starting point guards in the NBA? There are several, but they certainly don't dominate starting lineups as they did in decades past. Stockton, Kidd, Bibby... these guys are the exception, not the rule. It wouldn't be fair to say that we have a new breed of point guard, because there certainly have been point guards in the past who could score as well as pass. But we are entering a new era- scoring point guards are the norm, at least as common as 'pure' point guards, and proliferating more with each season. These guys are legitimate point guards who make their teams better with their style of play. Would you call Payton a 'pure' point guard? I don't. The guy can score like nutty. In any given possession he may consider himself for the first scoring option, and for good reason. But that doesn't mean he can't pass, and it certainly doesn't mean he can't make his team better, because he does. I heard last night that when Bibby got 10 assists it was his fourth night in a row to have double digit assists. That was a franchise record. Well, Steve already did that back in January, for five games. And he didn't have to wait until the end of his second year in the league to do it. Francis was named NBA player of the week then, averaging over 10 assists and 25 points. It is no coicidence that the Rockets were winning during that time. If you saw the games, you would see that his scoring did not take away from his passing, nor did his passing detract from his scoring. One fed the other- always drawing two or three defenders as a scoring threat opened up his teammates, and he found them because he is an excellent passer. I'm going to say that again; he is an excellent passer. And to belabor the point that heypartner has alreay explained very well, Francis' numbers are down because he is being doubled very early. Already, he is one of the biggest threats at guard out there. But more than that, teams are trying to get the ball out of his hands because of his ability to create. Teams don't trap Steve just to prevent him from scoring; they trap him because he makes everyone score. Steve Francis is a legitimate point guard, already one of the best in the league. January certainly isn't the last time we will see those numbers. ------------------
Nolen Well said. I nominate Nolen as President of the S.F.B.W.C. Oh Crisco is now the Official Mascot! Glad to see we also have a treasurer and a "key-grip" ------------------ RAWW VICE PRES of the S.F.B.W.C
I also have to whole heartedely agree. I am assuming that by Nolen's description of the "new point guard" , that I am correct about Shandon Anderson. Since we actually have 5 point guards on the team now, ( SF, SA, MN, CM, BD) , it's no wonder Rudy accidently put 4 of them on the floor at the same time. However, gotta get some height out there!! ------------- ROCKS "Key-Grip" of the S.F.B.W.C. and Vice-President of the Shandon Anderson for Point Guard Club. ------------------ ------------------
HR, I don't think that was an accident, I think that was just old fashon bad coaching. I wonder what those guys were thinking when they realized there were 4 guards and "air" Bullard out there? TANK TIME ------------------ RAWW VICE PRES of the S.F.B.W.C Paid for by the Frudy T. Gin and Juice Daquari Factory.
The talk about Francis playing the 2 began before the draft. I think he should continue to play the point, BUT if he doesn't improve, he needs to play the 2 spot. Period. Point guards must take care of the ball. Steve is a good passer-no doubt. But that's only half of the ratio. Look at points off turnovers, too. Jalen Rose wanted to play point guard when he came into the league, now he's a small forward and having the best season of his entire career. It was a tough pill to swallow, but worth it for Rose and the Pacers. Just for the hell of it, how many of you guys are for the Rockets hiring a coach (K.J., Harper, Mark Price-y'all get the point) to help teach Francis the fundamentals of point guard play? Francis has all the talent in the world-and the court vision. But the sooner he learns to put the package together the bestter for all parties involved (including the fans). I for one think the boy needs a mentor. ------------------ Now accepting applications for the Make Steve Francis Accept Reality Club
First year assist numbers: Bibby -- 6.5 Francis -- 6.4 What's so 'classic' about that? ------------------
I've brought up the Francis/2 guard thing in the past and was ripped by many who thought he was too short for the position. Lately though it looks like a few people are coming around. Anyway, I like the idea of him playing SG on OCCASION...like when there is another PG on the floor. His speed getting around picks would easily add 6-8 ppg(or more) to his and the teams average scoring. The rest of the time I like him at the PG because he can do his thing while getting his teammates involved. That said.... A few of you have pointed out that Francis palms the ball...well so does half the friggin league!! This is nothing new. MJ did it for years. Most successful big men do it when backing down in the paint. It's in the rule book and should be called. "please don't start the "rookie don't get respect argument" (it's fair in some respects, but overly inflated" REALLY? I don't think so. Kenny Thomas(a rookie) WOULD have gotten at least 3 trips to the line in the 4th quarter IF he was an established veteran. He CLEARLY was hacked again and again WITHOUT the hearing a single whistle. In this case the "rookie don't get respect argument" was right on! I gotta agree with GYHAS about one thing though...Francis needs to decide whether he wants to be the winner or the hero. There was one instance last night, when the Rockets were down by 5(I think) and Francis got a steal and a dunk. After he slammed it home, he was bouncing around, yelling and celebrating like he just won the game, but they were still losing. Basically he needs to be more focused on what needs to be done, rather than what has already been done. ------------------ The lottery sucks!
Intresting post TheFreak... maybe the Griz should have moved Bibby to the 2 gaurd spot... ------------------ Treasurer of the S.F.B.W.C and founder of the "True Point Guards Retirement Group" helping them ease into extinction.
HeyPud: Sheeesh! I have to admit I haven't watched Francis all that much -- 2 games in person and maybe 5 more on t.v., so if you're going to discount opinions based on that criteria alone, I can't really continue this discussion. You've automatically got the upper hand because you can always say, "Well, you haven't seen enough of him!" With Steve Francis, though, I've been watching him very intently both on and off the court and, frankly, it is his attitude to the game and life that I don't like more so than his abilities. I saw the excellent wrap-around dishes last night you mentioned and I've seen many of his bullet feeds to the open man bounce off people's hands that many of the posters here often complain about. My point is he doesn't seem to be learning that this style just isn't working for the team that he's got. Over the season, Bibby has been subjected to more and more trapping just as Francis has (maybe even more because we have virtually no other efficient ball-handler) but his assist totals have somehow climbed from the low sixes to 8.0. Steve has been playing his "Juco ball" as Ramsay calls it too often and he hasn't adjusted. If you don't at least ask yourself why that is, you're ignoring reality. Some of this comes down to intangibles like humility, encouraging team play and loving the simple play as much as the highlight reel. In this morning's Vancouver paper, Steve was quoted as having said to the ball boy, "Kid, have you ever seen anyone score 50 points? Watch me tonight." He was also quoted as saying, "I think I'm having an excellent season, I am a key asset on a rising team." The first quote goes to the issue of what Francis really intended to do all night -- torch the bad, bad Vancouver fans who got justifiably upset when he called down our franchise, city and country. Just try substituting some Stevie the International Statesman quotes about Vancouver with parallel statements from say, Kenyon Martin, if you guys drafted him and he rejected your team, "Well, I ain't coming to Houston cause they've already got a Power Forward!" or "I don't like Houston cause it's baking in the summer, they've got a lousy stadium and it's the handgun capital of the South!" For us, this equates to Stevie's boorish, "All I know about Vancouver is it's rainy, cold and they take all your money." Equally false as my pretend Martin comment is but what does Francis expect when he comes to Vancouver, that we're going to ignore his stupidity -- particularly when he compounded it with telling the press that God told him not to come to Vancouver! What utter gall! Hardly the guy I want running my team. Maybe God's telling him to shoot all those low % threes instead of making a simple bounce pass to Cato in the post. The second comment is just one of many of the type that I have heard from Francis about assessing his own ability. Maybe you guys think it's wonderful that the guy has got a head the size of Lake Erie but whenever I played ball with people like him, I didn't want them to succeed, even on my own team. I always played quarterback or point guard on my teams and it wasn't because I was the best athlete by a long shot. Point guard is the judgement center of the game and Stevie just doesn't have it, yet. I think Rudy T. is one of the best coaches in the game (after watching last night's athletic exhibition, you'd have to say Vancouver and Houston are virtually tied in that department but I think the Rockets coaching has been excellent in the face of diversity thus their better record) and I'm betting he feels he can turn Francis around to a wonderful, true point guard. He might be right but I don't think it's any accident that you saw Moochie out there a lot when things we're getting tight. If you think this is just sour grapes, fuhgeddaboutit! Last night, after Francis dunked over Country's head, he ran past the bench away from the t.v. cameras and very clearly and slowly mouthed "F...You, Vancouver!" directly up at the crowd. Not only does this show a huge lack of class, it was way too soon to be celebrating. The other guys that I have seen doing this type of number -- Gary Payton and Marbury (neither of whom I'd ever want to be cheering for). The guys who wouldn't even think of doing this type of thing -- John Stockton, Jason Kidd and, yes, Mike Bibby. ------------------
RocketsPimp, My point about the calls is Francis ought to know how to crossover without dribbling the ball as high as his head and carrying the ball like he's waiting tables. Relying on favorable ref calls is not the way to spend your career (that goes out to the Malone haters; the same should apply to our star). Besides, it's like a criminal defendant who's guilty complaining because a jury let his co-conspirator off but not him. Wah. Fundamentals are important, and a point guard needs them. ------------------ Now accepting applications for the Make Steve Francis Accept Reality Club
HR, lots of laughs. Nolen---awesome...I particulary love the stat-the-fact-jack part. Be careful though, giving the 1-2 punch like that can lead to SHAKEN HEAD SYNDROME.
I don't like GP at all, don't know much about Marbury's persona, but like Stevie, they all are point guards who can completely ball. If they are on your team, you route for them and celebrate the wins they bring you, if not you hate them for their bravado. Without Stevie this year I think we would be fighting with the Bull & Clips, so I think that shows what he has meant to the team's production. Not defending their personal actions, but that is pretty much the way major sports goes. Besides, I am sure plenty of FU's rained down from the stands before the episode your refer to. Should he ignore it, probably, but I am not going to roast a twenty year old kid for it either. ------------------
SHAKE YOUR HEAD, OH--I see. I was right. You do have a personality stereotype problem with Francis? We have enough of that with Barkley haters. You can go away now. Your comments have been noted.
Get over it dude, Francis is not the only athlete who has dissed a whole city, John Elway (football) was originally drafted by Baltimore, and he wanted to go to Denver, JD Drew (baseball) was drafted by Philly and he didn't want to sign so he went back to the draft and signed with St. Louis. Pippen dissed Houston and Barkley. I mean if they don't like your city or my city, who cares, it's there lost right!!! Just get over it Vancouver, you're not that special! 2nd, I saw the nasty dunk over big ass county and that's all I saw. I didn't see him mouth anything to the crowd, and if he did so what! You are comparing apples to oranges when you are talking about the attitudes of people. Kind of hard to not take it personal when you have 12,000+ people booing you everytime you touch the ball. Yeah, very classy Vancouver! ------------------ RAWW VICE PRES of the S.F.B.W.C Paid for by the Frudy T. Gin and Juice Daquari Factory. [This message has been edited by raww (edited April 05, 2000).]
O.k. Shaky, now the gloves are coming off. I was cool with your supposedly open-minded posts on this BBS until you wanted to bring "class" into the picture. So you're saying Stevie has no class because he shouted an explicative to an audience that consistently booed him everytime he touched the ball? Was it classy when your crowd booed him the 1st time he came to Vancouver, was it class this time. When I think of class I think of somebody (or bodies)that are mature. Mature enough to take the high road even though the urge to be vulgar and debase is prevelant. When I think of class I think of someone who displays this and leads by example. A person should not have to say "I have class" it should be evident by their actions. So yeah I guess you guys really showed Stevie how to be a class act, with boo's and chants of "Francis Sucks". Man with such excellent role models and such upstanding citizens how could he ever think about not wanting to live in Canada. Also you begin to reek of hypocrisy and contradiction. For every compliment you give to Francis you rip him with two or three insults. Case and point: You stated earlier in this thread "...he could have run the clock down to under 3 seconds before he started his drive (or he would have had his man backed off for a three -- which was looking superb tonight)" so if his three was look great what was the point of you later saying this "Maybe God's telling him to shoot all those low % threes instead of making a simple bounce pass to Cato in the post". So what now that someone on the bbs pissed you off the shot that you said looked superb and that he should have taken earlier is now low percentage. Hmmmm. I for one grow tired of you and especially tired of all of those misguided Rocket Fans who have been duped by the seasoning of your words. Your and yours begin to bore me with your incessent prattling of how Francis is really a shooting guard. I state again he is our point guard that's it final. If you're happy with, Bibby so be it. If you don't like Francis, your problem. Just be man enough to say it and stop hiding behind fake compliments and supposed indifference. ------------------ Treasurer of the S.F.B.W.C and founder of the "True Point Guards Retirement Group" helping them ease into extinction.
