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[NASA is full of crap] Space experts warn Congress that NASA’s “Journey to Mars” is illusory

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Bandwagoner, Feb 4, 2016.

  1. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Contributing Member

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    Sorry I'm at the gym right now but why did you assume I was talking about solar radiation when I said the earth blocks half of it for ISS. The earth blocks sime cosmic rays for the ISS because the are in such a low orbit. Our atmosphere protects us here.
     
  2. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Contributing Member

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    You said there was a magic weight at which ESL could not use parachutes that was above the mass of MSL and below the mass of a manned mission. I think the onus is on you to show what that weight is and why. MSL used supersonic parachutes so what do you mean when you say that? Speed of sound is of course much lower on Mars. I take it you are saying ESL is impossible with a manned mission? That is a bold statement, anything to back that up would be great.

    Wow, which trajectory are you talking about here? MOR and MEr did a ~ 6.5 month (same we will use for manned) and MSL did a 8.5 month because the extra weight would have required more fuel (higher Δ V for the 6.5 month trajectory. Please detail the trajectory, Δ V and what reason you would have to take that long on a manned mission.
    Did you forget to include why an impulse thrust from chemical propulsion cannot work? And why you need better technology to store fuel? Because that isn't anywhere in your rambling here.

    No but as I assume you are claiming to know more than me you will gladly educate me on why chemical propulsion won't work and why you advocate a 1 year trajectory to Mars. Also why a large fuel storage is needed.
     
  3. robbie380

    robbie380 ლ(▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿ლ)
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    When you start a thread talking **** then that means I don't have to contribute ****.


    And I'm pretty sure you are somewhere in the first part of this vid. If you aren't in the first part then you are somewhere in the other 95% of this vid.

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nlgGazxmz1Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Contributing Member

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    Well you certainly followed that rule. It's weird that now you think I am on some youtube gym video when before you were advocating I go to the gym. You are a strange guy Rob.
     
  5. robbie380

    robbie380 ლ(▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿ლ)
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    How do you feel about the ISS?
     
  6. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    Humans would be constantly bombarded with radiation/ cosmic rays on mars as there is no magnetosphere. This not only creates a high risk of future cancers but it can cause significant cognitive issues that might endanger the mission. We've gained increased info from the rovers, but we've known about the dangers of cosmic rays for a long time.
     
  7. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    I don't know if this was a response to me but since it is on subject with our current debate.

    You wrote previously:
    I pointed out that that isn't correct as since the ISS is in LEO and well within the magnetosphere he is getting far far less than what would be on a trip to Mars. To be fair you said that too but chalked it up to being shielded by the Earth half the time.

    You then responded:
    Yet your own link didn't say anything about the huge Earth blocking radiation and specifically cited the magnetic field as being what is providing protection from radiation in LEO. In fact your own link showed that on a interplanetary the figure would be much more than twice the exposure. 150 mSv / year as compared to the 400 to 900 mSv/year on an interplanetary trip.

    You next responded with some inarticulate gobblygook about "****ing chickens." Ignoring that you again state:
    Granted yes the Earth blocks rays coming from one side but that is primarily solar, that is what a shadow is. Cosmic rays though are omni directional and the primary defense isn't the mass of the Earth but the magnetic field is the defense of that. If Kelly were to travel to Mars he would be subjected to far greater radiation because he is beyond the Magnetosphere. You dismissed Sweet Lou and myself's argument about the importance of the magnetosphere by citing Kelly and the size of the Earth when your own link pointed out the importance of the magnetosphere.

    To get this back to the original point. Radiation is a HUGE (sorry was watching the Larry David Bernie Sanders impression) issue and one of the things that needs to be addressed before we can safely send humans to Mars. The studies on the ISS help somewhat since there is more radiation exposure there than on Earth but it's not nearly the same as travel beyond the magnetosphere.
     
  8. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    First you're ignoring provocative actions that Japan has taken such as building installations on the Senkaku Islands. Further also ignore that it isn't just the PRC that has grievances and feels threatened by Japan but also South Korea. It is quite likely that Koreans might actually be more distrustful of Japan than Chinese. Since both though are US allies I'm not surprised that this is an issue you aren't that aware of.

    Also my point about that most other Asian countries have territorial squabbles with their neighbors is to point out that the borders in Asia aren't very well set. There are disputes dating back to the Ming Dynasty that are still in play and the legacy of colonialism and artificial borders drawn by colonial powers.
    And I see you didn't address that the biggest threat to war in Asia because of territory, in fact three wars have been fought already, isn't the PRC but India and Pakistan. Anyway that still skirts the primary issue is that even if the PRC actions in its immediate region are very provocative and aggressive that still doesn't mean that they are going to claim or colonize the Moon. You are framing this in cold war rhetoric as saying that since the evil Chinese are out menacing US allies in the South China Sea and Japan that they are going to do so everywhere including space. It completely ignores the context of why the PRC is acting in its near vicinity as opposed to millions of miles away. It is a completely shallow view of the PRC.

    Perhaps this is better served in another thread but let me ask you this. If the PRC was so aggressively expansionist globally and out to the Solar System, why haven't they built colonies or even bases in places like the Sudan where they already have major interests in?
     
  9. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    What installations? Please describe them to me.


    I am very aware of the grievances South Korea has with Japan and have written about them in the past here in D&D. You seem to have a strange idea that I am oblivious of the security and political situation in the area. It wouldn't surprise me if I know more about those topics than you do. That you honestly think South Korea, an ally of both the United States and Japan, "might actually be more distrustful of Japan than Chinese" just blows my mind.

    So now you are making excuses for Chinese behavior that violates international law by bringing up the Ming Dynasty? Seriously? Yes, there are disagreements between the smaller nations around the South China Sea and have been for a long time. They pale beside what China is doing today.

    Uh, that is a problem in South Asia that isn't pertinent to the little discussion we are having here, but since you brought it up, I noticed you didn't mention the biggest threat to India short of nuclear war between her and Pakistan. What country would that threat come from? China. Why is India frantically spending billions building up its armed forces? It isn't because of Pakistan, a country they could crush had they a mind to do so and were willing to ignore those atomic weapons Pakistan has now. It is China.

    If anyone has a shallow view of China, sir, it is you, with all due respect. I took a long term view of our space program and what we might do in the future. Someone mentioned the Orion spacecraft. My opinion is that when China does go to the Moon and builds bases, and they have said that that is what they are going to do, and I have no reason not to believe them, that we will use Orion to return to the Moon and establish a permanent presence there in response to China. Why? Because, in my opinion, politics in America will demand it, regardless of what China's true intentions are there, which could be perfectly peaceful when they manage to do what they have said they are going to do. I'll add that I have a higher opinion of what China will manage to do in space in the future than you do, apparently.

    Why would they build bases in an unstable country like Sudan when they can and are building bases in a far more stable and strategically located country in the same area of Africa, Djibouti? One thing that I will agree with you about, Judo, is that this isn't the thread in which to have these kinds of discussions, although we have managed to include outer space as a topic while disagreeing about a host of other things.
     
    #149 Deckard, Feb 10, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
  10. JeffB

    JeffB Contributing Member
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    I don't know why people even entertain the idea that China is taking legitimate actions.

    China is so transparently disingenuous in their historical claims. They can't even produce a single piece of evidence of these claims. They are just engaging in imperialist expansion and moving to control trade corridors.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLI8gZ3skmY
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxU6w1BXnTs

    They are just straight up building off the coast of other countries and claiming the area is theirs. And they will keep doing so because... who is gonna stop them? And with what?
     
  11. robbie380

    robbie380 ლ(▀̿Ĺ̯▀̿ ̿ლ)
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    This shouldn't have to be explained. This started because you came in talking trash like an internet bad ass to everyone.
     
  12. mikus

    mikus Member

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    Way off topic to this thread, but China and Russia are routinely testing the envelope on just how far "Might makes Right" in the modern world and they intend take any gains they can take advantage of. Right now I don't see anyone really wanting to stop them unless they step way over the line.
     
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  13. JeffB

    JeffB Contributing Member
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    Yeah. That first post, prior to the edit, was a laundry list of callouts. Posting tags /names listed. And **** flung. This thread had only one viable direction, given the original OP.

    It is a intellectually dishonest to start this argument and then go back and edit out your own **** talking. Whether you were right or wrong.
     
  14. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    I assume you mean EDL (Entry, Descent, and Landing) and not ESL (English as a Second Language)? The irony is funny.

    http://www.universetoday.com/7024/t...ge-payloads-to-the-surface-of-the-red-planet/

    You are the one throwing our random acronyms without apparently knowing what they stand for (ESL?). You first incorrectly stated that all you need is fuel to get out of earth's orbit - so clearly you missed the two other burns that are required for going into the orbital transfer and out of it. By the way, the first burn required takes more of a delta V than what is required to escape earth's gravity! Fuel storage is required because at the end of the trip you have to slow down and that requires a massive burn as well. You just don't know what you are talking about Casey. Go google some more.


    I round 9 months to a year - true that. I explained the fuel storage. As for knowing more than you - honestly that isn't saying much because you are really demonstrating that you know very little. You've done some reading and try to build your case for it - but this isn't about guns, it's not politics - it's not even climate change. You can't just pretend that science can do anything. There are major challenges going to mars, it's not because I said it, it's because people who know their **** are saying it.
     
  15. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    I'm going to start another thread for most of this as it is too far from the main subject.

    But to respond to what is on topic.
    I have no doubt many in the PRC have said they want Moon bases. I've been in presentations with Chinese officials where they showed off, propaganda, about their space program. If you believe that is going to happen anytime in the near future I have some T-wolves 2016 Championship jerseys to sell you. Even the PRC's own rosy projections for the Chang-e Lunar program are for manned missions, not yet permanent base, in the middle to end of the next decade.

    I follow the PRC for personal and professional reasons and I am pretty comfortable in saying that the PRC program is still very far behind the US and Russia's. Now granted the PRC keeps a lot of it secret but what has been publicly revealed doesn't show that they have the capability yet of getting a manned program beyond LEO. To be fair at the moment neither do we but we've already done it.

    Also as noted earlier the PRC economy is slowing down and there is possibility of an actual recession. Something that hasn't occurred in the lifetimes of much of the people of the PRC. An investment into building a permanent base on the Moon will require a lot of Renmibi which the government might find difficult to commit to. Your view seems to be that the Chinese are so aggressive and expansive that they would be willing to make a massively expensive investment into something that they don't have the technical capability of doing with no real strategic payoff just because they are so greedy for territory.

    Other than national prestige there isn't much of an immediate payoff to colonizing the Moon for the PRC. What though I have heard from yourself and others like you is that it creates a great boogieman to encourage a new space race to stay ahead of the Chinese whether such a thing is realistic or not.
     
  16. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    Not saying they are legal under international law, legitimate is a relative term that requires particular context, but that to extrapolate from actions along the PRC's border to wanting to expand to the Moon is a stretch.
     
  17. JeffB

    JeffB Contributing Member
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    I was strictly adding to the talk about the actions in the South China Sea. Actions that are NOT along the PRC border, but near the borders of nations much further south than the PRC (aim of the videos was the use of of maps the critic uses to illustrate that point).

    The moon crap... I offered no thoughts, let alone an extrapolation on.

    But never mind me. Y'all carry on. So the Chinese want the moon?.... ;)
     
  18. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Contributing Member

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    No it blocks cosmic rays because cosmic rays cannot travel through the earth. That is why the cosmic rays hitting ISS are lower.


    So your position is cosmic rays travel through the mass of the earth like a JFK bullet. Excellent. What can't the ISS do.
     
  19. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Contributing Member

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    So you rounded 6.5 months to 9 months then 9 months to a year then think we need long term fuel storage. Your insight into why we should stay with the ISS is incredible bro.
     
  20. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Contributing Member

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    I feel that the money spent is great. Huge benefit to mankind.
     

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