Okay, obviously there have been quite a few Hakeem threads lately, and I am sorry to be contributing yet another, but here it goes. Warning- this will be a LONG post. Read at your own risk... I have read quite a bit of your posts on why you are in favor of Hakeem leaving the Rockets, and who exactly is at fault in the situation. Many of these reasons seem downright ridiculous, and I will try to debunk them, one-by-one. Myth 1: Hakeem is greedy, and I don't want him around. Greedy? Well, perhaps by your standards. Put yourself in Hakeem's shoes. A 12 million dollar pay cut is massive. 4 million may seem like a lot to us poor folk , but to someone who just made 16 million, it is a big drop. However, I do not believe this to be the primary reason behind his displeasure with the financial amount. The Rockets only offered him 4.1 million. According to several sources on this BBS, the Rockets have 16 million in cap room. If he were to sign for 4 million, they would have 12 million left. Now, how much were the Rockets planning on paying Mo? Certainly not 12 million. Probably 6 million at the most. That still leaves six million left. There is no way Shandon or Moochie should make that. Who else is going to get that money? Marc Jackson? He is worth no more than 4, at the absolute most. Besides, I thought the Rockets were going to focus on re-signing their free agents. Clearly, the Rockets can afford to pay Hakeem up to six million, but their highest offer has been 4. He would be willing to take that, but only from the Raptors. Why? Well, that is all the Raptors can afford, and they are offering him a guaranteed Finals appearance. He should be paid more from the Houston if they can afford it, after all he has done. The Rockets can clearly afford to pay him more than 4 million, so why don't they? A possible reason leads me to my next "myth". Myth 2: The Rockets need to save up for Duncan's free agency. Many have said that signing Dream for more than 4 million would hurt the Rockets' chances of luring Tim Duncan to the Rockets in 2003. Well, that may be true. Okay, let's sacrifice contention for the next two years, so we can have a one in 28 chance of landing Tim Duncan years from now. I sure am glad the Rockets didn't decide to do that in preparation to sign Chris Webber, because we would be hurting right now. Sacrificing the quality of the team now, for an off chance of getting Duncan in the future, is simply not worth it. Myth 3: Hakeem is upset because he can't be "the man". Let him go somewhere else. Sure, Hakeem is upset that he can't be "the man", but who wouldn't be after having years like he had? Hakeem as already accepted the fact that he can't be the number-one option, but he has proven that he can still be a valuable role player. Once Rudy decided to play Hakeem for more than 20 minutes, he averaged 14-10. His defense was spectacular, far superior to having Mo or Kelvin play center. All Hakeem wants is to be shown respect during the game, and not have to sit and watch Matt Bullard and Kenny Thomas throw away game after game in the fourth quarter. That is not asking to be "the man", that is asking for a little respect. Myth 4: Why bother with Hakeem? It's not like we're going to contend any time soon. This one bothers me more than any other? Exactly why can't the Rockets contend next year? And if not next year, why not the year after? This is a team that features one of the most talented starting lineups in the league. A great draft has allowed the Rockets to move several quality players to the bench, making them a deep team. Francis is only getting better, and should be approaching superstar status this season. The year after, he could be the best point guard in the game. Mobley is approaching his prime. Together with Steve, they form perhaps the best guard combo in the league. They may need to develop some more, but that should be done in the playoffs, not the regular season. Griffin should provide good D, and maybe even Rookie of the Year numbers. I don't buy into the "he's only 19" hype. No one expects him to be a superstar (yet), but he could still be a major presence next year. Maurice Taylor has been talked about a lot, and he can only improve on last year's numbers. His offense is fine, and his defense is solid. His board-work problems could be solved by a Griffin-Olajuwon combination, or perhaps personal improvement. Combine these players with Dream at center, and a deep bench featuring Moochie, Shandon, Kenny, Walt, Langhi, and Morris, and the Rockets have a very talented team. They won 45 games last year. If they had beaten the crappy teams, they could easily have won 54. They have only added talent. Combine that with experience and general improvement, and they should absolutely be considered contenders. Only the Lakers, Kings, and Mavs could be considered better. The Jazz, Spurs, Blazers, Sonics, Suns, and Wolves have all weakened. The new rules may also help defense on Shaq. Why can't this team contend? I can't think of a reason. Hakeem could do nothing but help the Rockets in the playoffs. His experience would be tremendous. Would you rather go up against the Lakers with Cato/Collier at Center, or Hakeem? If the Rockets are going to grow, it must be done in the playoffs. No more moral victories in the season. Teams like the Pistons of the 80s made the Finals several times until finally winning. They were able to learn how to win in a championship situation, and then become back-to-back champions. The Magic made the finals in Shaq's second year. The Spurs won the title in Duncan's second. Those teams had veterans to help the young players. Hakeem could do that. Myth 5: Olajuwon would hamper the Rockets' growth. Huh? What? How? This myth kind of ties in with number 4, but how could Dream hurt their growth exactly? Having a veteran superstar and champion is what every young team would kill to have. Why do the Raptors want Dream instead of Marc Jackson? While they both put up similar numbers, Hakeem's value can not be measured on paper. I would rather the Rockets learn from Dream, than from Matt Bullard. Oh, and I am not ready for Cato-time just yet... Myth 6: Average fans won't care if he leaves. Oh yes they will. The Rockets were dead last in attendance last year. Seeing Hakeem play on another team because the Rockets weren't willing to pay more than 4 million will anger them, as it will anger me. Myth 7: Dream was not solely responsible for those titles, so the Rockets owe him nothing. Well, technically, no, he wasn’t solely responsible. The role players did contribute, but any role players could have done that. Hakeem played perhaps the best basketball from any center in history during that stretch from 93-95. He was the only primary scorer in 94, and in 95, he was complimented by an aging Clyde Drexler. That is hardly the kind of help that Shaq had for his last two rings. Without Hakeem, the Rockets miss the playoffs- by a mile. Without Mario Ellie and Kenny Smith, the Rockets bring in other role players to help Hakeem, and the Rockets win again. If not for Hakeem “the Dream” Olajuwon, the city of Houston would still be struggling to find it’s first true professional sports title. Adding one more: Myth 8: Hakeem will only play 50 games, so he is not worth the cash. 50 games of Hakeem and 32 of Cato is better than no games of Hakeem and 82 of Cato. Plus, as long as he is healthy for the playoffs, that is all that matters. If he averages 14-8 for the whole season, then he is well worth the money. Look at what Todd Maculluh is making... So, in conclusion (phew), the Rockets should do everything in their power to keep Hakeem Olajuwon in pinstripes. It is not too late. They have the money to offer him 6-8 million, which is what he deserves, and expects. They should show that they want him back. Hakeem wants to feel wanted, and the Raptors and Pacers are making him feel that way. The Rockets should too. His presence would do nothing but help them. The Rockets can still sign Hakeem, and keep their free agents, so what have they got to lose by paying the guy? Nothing! I hope some of you bothered to read this. ------------------ Protrolls.com! Keep the ???? alive! The ZRBucks! [This message has been edited by ZRB (edited July 22, 2001).] [This message has been edited by ZRB (edited July 22, 2001).]
ZRB, do you ever sleep? ------------------ "If you don't understand it, don't try to understand it." -Carl Everett
Sorry ZRB, I appreciate your enthusiasm but ...... Yawn ..... time for bed so will make this quick ...... 1. Hakeem has forced this issue. He has the right to force do so, because he is a free agent. I do not have a problem with that. 2. Hakeem was paid well for his past services and he was given everything a "star" gets including the top billing and the big focus. We don't owe him a damn thing and he doesn't owe us anything ..... except the respect and adoration of the past and some very fond memories. 3. Hakeem is on the slide.He cannot play a full season, he is less quick, less effective and less integral for our game.(DO NOT read useless into this.) 4. Hakeem is wanted. He is a player that can fit an important role on the team, but not the SAME role he had previous(see #3). Therefore he should be paid accordingly. 5. The players that will play (and can play) everynight and have a future with the team should be rewarded. Have a good night. ------------------
ZRB, u are one of the posters i respect most, and i see very good points in your post, but do u not feel even slightly betrayed by this charade dream has put us through? ------------------ I do not believe in god. And it is nice to know that I am going to hell with Hitler, and McVeigh. Although I do not know why.
my problem is that everyone wants to bring hakeem back so we can be a playoff team. This makes no sense, while i like hakeem, he will NOT put us over the top and will simply r****d the growth of this team, sure we could bring him back, if we want to be the "perennial playoff team" a.k.a. the utah jazz, but if we want to win more champsionships, we need to simply let hakeem move on. ------------------ Anyone need a C/C++/Win32/HTML/PHP/SQL/Java/Perl/x86 coder?
No, the 16 million he earned last season was simply reparation for what he brought this team and city over the years. You make it sound as if the Rockets are asking a 16 million dollar a season caliber player to take a 12 million dollar paycut, which isn't the case. Can you justify paying Hakeem over 6 million a year, for 2 years, with the 2nd year being guaranteed? I think he's been compensated very well for his past accomplishments, so to say he should be overpaid for what he's brought to this city, team, fans, etc.. is a moot point. You judge him, and pay him accordingly based on how much he can contribute today. You also disregard the fact, that the end of Hakeem's contract, if resigned, and Francis' max out year coincide. This leaves the team with no cap space, and makes attaining a quality center that much harder. They'd likely have to part with some key players to upgrade the position. Personally, I'd rather the guards on this team not have to worry about feeding the ball into a back to the basket post player anymore. That's not the direction this team is headed in, and it would be better if they got a headstart on running an offense completely based on their strengths which doesn't involve periodically dumping it in the post throughout the game. Also, Hakeem DID play roughly 25.5 mpg during the first 15 games of the season, which many claim was the time he was being used the least. True, he was only getting 7.8 shots a game, but this was a result, imo, of his reluctance to buy into the new offensive system, which led to him being unmotivated on the defensive end. Hakeem's success this past season was more a result of him buying into the system than it was Rudy using him more. ------------------ [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited July 22, 2001).]
I am living two hours behind you guys, and I often stay up late. It is only 12:16 here, and that is nothing for a night-owl like me. I will respond in more detail tomorrow. ------------------ Protrolls.com! Keep the ???? alive! The ZRBucks!
Could you explain your reasoning behind that? ------------------ Protrolls.com! Keep the ???? alive! The ZRBucks!
By "tomorrow," do you mean the 23rd? ------------------ "If you don't understand it, don't try to understand it." -Carl Everett
There, I added one more myth. Okay, in about 8-10 hours, if you want to be so picky... Francis3422- I don't feel that Dream is completely responsible for this. I think you can blame both the Rockets and Hakeem, although I tend to blame the Rockets more. And if this is all Hakeem, then I still don't feel betrayed. Two titles and countless memories have made up for all this. ------------------ Protrolls.com! Keep the ???? alive! The ZRBucks! [This message has been edited by ZRB (edited July 22, 2001).]
ZRB, I'm with you. If we can afford to pay him, then we're better with him than without. I absolutely cannot see how keeping Dream will hurt the growth of the Rockets. If he was demanding to be nothing less than "the man," then I could see it. That is not what he wants and it is not what the Rockets want of him. No one owes Hakeem anything, and Hakeem owes us nothing. Actually, hang on a second.... .....after the way they acted like he was washed up last year, they owe him the respect that he can still play. I was sick watching him not play last year. Dream on the bench and Bullard at the 5, yeah, that makes sense. ------------------ "I have no regrets except that I wasn't up to keep Randy from getting on that plane." --Ozzy Osbourne on guitarist Randy Rhodes
If Hakeem were willing to just play defense and rebound and get garbage points, I'd love to have him back. He obviously doesn't want to do that because of the previous reports of him wanting to have a significant role on this team, that doesn't sound like a guy that will be fine with not touching the ball. I want this team to be the Steve, Cuttino, and MoTay show. I'm totally content with Cato, Collier, and [insert Pig Miller type player] as our center platoon next season. I definitely don't want some center that's on the verge of turning 40 demanding touches and asking to be traded midseason to the Heat again. If we can get something out of a S&T, then that's great, but if we don't, then that's fine as well. If Dream really wanted to retire a Rocket like everyone here does, then he should be able to handle $4 million he's being offered. He's made enough money to help his children's children get through college, but $2 million (difference between offers) is really going to effect him? If he cared about spending his career in Houston, he wouldn't be doing this right now. He obviously cares about his ego more than this city, so why should I care if he stays or goes? If Dream goes away, it will suck for the couple years that he's playing for someone else, but when he retires, and they write the book on Dream, it will be all about Houston. It's Stevie and Cuttino's time to takeover this team, the past was great, but it's time to move on. ------------------ So you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking, Racing around to come up behind you again. The sun is the same in a relative way but you're older, Shorter of breath and one day closer to death.
You're disputing my statement that Hakeem won't make us better than the lakers? ------------------ Anyone need a C/C++/Win32/HTML/PHP/SQL/Java/Perl/x86 coder?
No, I'm disputing you statement that Hakeem would stunt the Rockets' growth. Although, with the new rules, I think the Lakers are beatable. Pete Rose Mobster- So, you want the Rockets to have no low post option? That is great in the west... ------------------ Protrolls.com! Keep the ???? alive! The ZRBucks!
After reading what I wrote: I don't necessarily think they owe him anything $$$-wise. I just think they realized too late last year that Hakeem could help the team. I watched those games with him on the bench in absolute bewilderment. I could smell the trouble coming, and it did in the form of Dream saying "play me or trade me." Yes Dream's numbers have fallen and he's not as quick as he used to be, we all know that. IMO, his defense alone is worth $6 million. There is not one person on this team or in this league (of those FAs who were available) who provides the presence that he does (okay, maybe D-Rob, but did anyone really think we'd get him?). Personally, I'm hurt that he won't sign for the minimum, but I was also pissed at the way he was used last year, and I think the Rockets could have handled it better. If I was the boss I would have buttered up his ego the moment he started about not retiring, and implanted the idea of him accepting the minimum a la Charles Barkley for Quitten. All I'm saying is that we're better with him than without him and if we can afford him, we should keep him. The Rockets could have, IMO, handled this much better from the beginning last year. Now they are running the risk of having at hole at the 5 and a PR nightmare on their hands. They handled this poorly. You reap what you sow. ------------------ "I have no regrets except that I wasn't up to keep Randy from getting on that plane." --Ozzy Osbourne on guitarist Randy Rhodes
Forget the question of paying him 4.5 mil or 16 mil a season. let's forget this just for a minute. The question should be : are we a better team with hakeem? And how many more games can we possibly win with hakeem? Think about this, hakeem is not the focal point of defenses anymore. He will be guarded by one person. This to me means 15-20 points and 10-12 rebs and 2blocks. So, the numbers alone say hakeem deserves more than the 4.5 mil. In anycase, hakeem will stay with the rockets and we will all witness how important of a factor he is, especially in the playoffs.
k If you think short term, you can forget about it, but if you're thinking long term, you can't forget about it. If what I'm reading from others who know the CBA more than I do is correct, we'll be in trouble down the road if we give him a 2 year contract. Think about this, hakeem is not the focal point of defenses anymore. He will be guarded by one person. This to me means 15-20 points and 10-12 rebs and 2blocks. So, the numbers alone say hakeem deserves more than the 4.5 mil. [/B][/QUOTE] What numbers? The numbers that we make up as we go along? Hell, man, I'd be happy if Hakeem could play for the majority of the season. And if he averaged 20 pts, 10-12 rebs, and 2 blocks, he'd be an all-star. He can get the 10-12 rebs, and 2 blocks, but if he's getting 20 points, I'd be shocked. ------------------ "I'll tell you this, the older I get, the less I trust people. It's true. It's damn true." -- gr8-1 going through some growing pains.
ZRB, I say amen to everything you said. I do not see the argument how signing Hakeem would lessen our chances for Duncan in 2003. It increases our chances, if it is only a two-year deal, because it creates more cap space by keeping us from overpaying MoT and SA. If Hakeem leaves, we will have more space, and they will want more money. I now see the logic in waiting until 2003 for our last big free agent splash. All of the big name free agents next year will be restricted. The only catch is that we would need to somehow dump Cato's salary over the next two years to do so (i.e. to have Duncan-type max dollars available), because Francis will get about a $7 million bump, either in an extension next fall, or his unrenounced 300% cap hit in the summer 2003. If I were spending Les' money, I would even work some sort of trade for the most untradeable player in the league, Derrick Coleman, and then cut his arse, because he comes off the cap in Summer 2003. It makes no sense to me to not offer Hakeem at least one year, $7 million. This way, we save early bird rights for SA and Moochie (which, under no uncertain terms should they earn more), $6 million for MoT (which is the most we should pay him to start), and still have $7 million for Hakeem. What are we trying to do, save $3 million in cap space for Bullard? Bullard should take the minimum after we sign the other players, or go somewhere else. Give Hakeem $7 million for one year, plus some number next year, if necessary. Why do we care if Les wastes his money this year, if it does not realistically hurt our future cap position? It's too late for him to raise season ticket prices for next year. Hakeem helps our young players' growth by helping us get to the playoffs. The Western Conference will still be good next year, and it is not a given that we will make the playoffs. Then our young players get playoff experience, for which there is no substitute. You could tell by Francis' decision to attend several playoff games this year and his comments afterwards of his thirst for playoff experience. ------------------ [This message has been edited by JoeBarelyCares (edited July 22, 2001).] [This message has been edited by JoeBarelyCares (edited July 22, 2001).]
ZRB, We're going to have to get used to not having a "low post presence" sooner or later. I'd rather get used to it now so when Steve and Cuttino hit their peaks, they'll be used to the offense without a guy that demands the ball at C. We can win in the west without a "low post presence", damn the only time we beat the Spurs was when Dream was out and we had Kelvin Freaking Cato playing. All we need from our center is a guy that will make the other player work for his points, a guy that will pound on Shaq's arms whenever he's close to the basket, a guy that just gets garbage points. That's all we need at C. I think Cato/Collier/CBA-type center could provide 18 fouls a game on the dominant big men in the West, and slowly wear them down to the point they can't feel their arms during crunch time of a game. I don't really understand the salary cap or the implications of guaranteeing Dream a 2nd year for x amount of money, but apparently this deal he wants will hurt the team. We should just let him go. A team that we're probably closest to, the Bucks, did pretty well against the Western elite and they didn't have a "low post presence", so it can be done. I'm tired of hearing about how Dream isn't happy with his role on the team, it's a team game and he needs to either check his ego or let some other team kiss his ass. The Rockets need to make a stand and call Dream's bluff and accept whatever he chooses to do. If CD gives into his demands, then this won't be the last time that a player and his agent will take advantage of the Rockets. ------------------ So you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking, Racing around to come up behind you again. The sun is the same in a relative way but you're older, Shorter of breath and one day closer to death. [This message has been edited by Pete Rose Mobster (edited July 22, 2001).]
ZRB, I want Hakeem to stay, and honestly, I want to go into next season with the mentality of contending. However, the things he's said and done lately make me think it may be time to let him go. 8.5 million over two years isn't as high as I expected the offer to be. But there's a reason behind all the moves management does. I hope Shandon Anderson isn't a part of it, but even if he is, the majority of that money will be committed to young players who fit in with team chemistry and can play every night. Here's my main concern though: does he want to be here? We've treated him like a king for 17 years. We showed him the ultimate loyalty by passing up that unbelievable trade offer from Toronto two summers ago to keep a 36 year old center. Does he owe us anything? Maybe, maybe not. But our offer is approximately the same as what Toronto is offering, and there is something he doesn't like or is uncomfortable with regarding the Rockets for him to be near signing with Toronto. I agree with you about needing the low post option. A center who can just get garbage points is not the answer, at least until Griffin develops a good post game. However, there are other alternatives. Marc Jackson. Keon Clark in a sign and trade. My feeling on this is the same about the Astros trading for Al Leiter after his recent comments. If Dream doesn't want to be here, get out. I don't care how good he is or can be for this team, if he won't be happy here and will continually complain about getting more touches, etc. I'd rather look at other options. All championship teams have great chemistry. The Lakers playoff chemistry was fabulous, while the most talented team, Portland, was a disaster. Look at the Spurs in '99. Can anyone tell me that a lineup of Avery Johnson, Mario Elie, Sean Elliott, Tim Duncan, and David Robinson was the most talented in the league? Not at all. But they fit well together. They had great chemistry. And they were dominating in the playoffs, going 15-2. That's what we need the Rockets to be like. Players who fit together, compliment each other, and as a whole love playing basketball and love playing with this team and system. We don't need to force anyone to play here. Hakeem is not the only option. I feel the same way on this as I do with Mo Taylor-Chris Webber. A player with desire is better than a player here for the money. If Marc Jackson is a realistic possibility, I'm sure Steve and Cat could buy him into the team concept that the Rockets are running. They could do so with any young player. But Hakeem appears unwilling to do that, and the fact that he is "all but gone" from the Rockets for pretty much the same money elsewhere tells me he's not satisfied in Houston. If that's the case, let him leave. I wouldn't want to raise our offer and get to keep him based on being the only alternative for him to get more money. Hakeem would be a great fit with his skills, and I'd love to see him play in Houston again. But if he doesn't want to be here, we might as well let him move on. There is no substitute for desire, happiness, and motivation, and based on the events of this past week, I can't see him being happy in Houston and performing the role the Rockets need him to do. ------------------ Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! The Mo Taylor Fan Site
