More on Dean

Here's a good chat with a Newsweek editor on Dean. Too long for one post.

Part One:

http://www.msnbc.com/m/nw/talk/talk.asp?lt=080603_alter&0cb=-414171804

Howard Dean and the Democrats


Senior Editor Jonathan Alter is an originator and author of the weekly "Conventional Wisdom Watch" and a political columnist ("Between the Lines" appears online and in print). As a senior editor, he also helps shape the magazine's overall news coverage. He has reported on the past five presidential campaigns for NEWSWEEK and frequently interviews American presidents and other world leaders.


Everett, WA: Is Dean a practising Christian? Does he belong to a denomination? If so, which one? Thank you.

Jonathan Alter: i believe he's an episcopalian, but i'm not sure how religious he is...the dean folks could tell you at deanforamerica.com

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Flint, MI: What are the chances that alot of Dean's supporters used to be McCain supporters who aren't going to let their choice be overruled this time? Could it be these type voters simply like candidates who are outsiders and this time--having seen thier candidate (McCain) crushed by his own party--they are better prepared to fight for their candidate in part because Dean's website and grassroots organizing gives these people a methods to gather and plan (dean's blog, the meet-ups) so they can protect and promote their candidate?

When you combine these disaffected voters with a Democratic base who is excited about Dean could be really hard to stop. Hope I'm making sense...

Jonathan Alter: i think you're making a lot of sense. when the word gets out that dean isn't liberal--and in fact is quitre conservative--on fiscal issues, he'll pick up more mccain support. but don't forget that mccain has already criticized dean for his dovish foreign policy views and that could hurt with other parts of the mccain base. dean says he was just against iraq and is not a dove on f.p. we'll see how he handles that going forward.

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Chicago, IL: Do you think that the fact that Judy Steinberg is not campaigning on the trail for Gov. Dean would make it a deficit to him later on?

Jonathan Alter: not really. i think people will understand that she has a medical practice and doesn't want to abandone her patients. and i bet that if he wins the nomination she'll find more time to hit the trail in the fall of 2004. could be an asset, actually.

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Rochester, MN: How can Dean restore American credibility in the world after it has been destroyed by George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld?

Jonathan Alter: were dean or another democrat elected, admiration for the united states in the rest of the world would immediately revive. it's not our country that is so resented overseas; it's the arrogant attitude of this administration. all you have to do is travel abroad and that's clear. however, i don't think the attitude of the foreigners toward the u.s. is a good issue for the dems in a nation that eats "freedom fries." good for the dem base but that's it...

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Kingston, PA: Do you think that Dean's cocksure attitude of "Whatever I say is right, whatever Bush said and did was wrong." will eventually hurt him?

Jonathan Alter: yes, i think he needs to give bush a little more--which would make his critique more devastating. for instance, if he talked about how bush did a good job after 9/11 and asked americans to come together and do something for their country; how he promised to expand americrops community service by 50 percent. and now he wants to cut it by 50 percent--that would be effective. in other words, say, hey, i liked him for a time, he';s a regular guy-- but he turned out not to care all that much about regular people. that's much more effective than a constant attack.

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Los Angeles, CA: Apples are not oranges!

After comparing apples to oranges, your article falsely credits the Dean campaign for raising more money in one weekend ($500,000) than Dick Cheney ($300,000). Your article clearly states that Cheney traveled to Columbia, S.C. for a, "... $2,000-a-plate fund-raising luncheon" where he raised $300,000--apples]. After Dean's 'call to donors' he, "...raised more than $500,000--oranges] in three days, beating the Bush-Cheney juggernaut, for one weekend at least." This of course is a totally mismatched and misleading comparison. Cheney's fundraising luncheon lasted a few hours where Dean's fundraising "stunt" lasted three days! How can you legitimately compare a 3-hour fund-raising luncheon to a 3-day fund-raising stunt?

How about some journalistic integrity and compare the money raised by Cheney during a luncheon ($300,000) to the money raised on the Internet by Dean for the same period of time? Do you think Newsweek would actually print that number or would it be too damaging for the Dean campaign?

In addition you claim that Bush and Dean both figured out how to avoid serving in Vietnam? Of course, you fail to state the fact that Bush did join the Texas Air National Guard, he did go to flight school and he did become a fighter pilot. Many Air National Guard units served in Vietnam and many Air National Guard pilots were shot down or killed. Later in your own article you state the "fact" that "in the early 1970s Dean got a medical deferment from the draft for a bad back not long before he spent the winter skiing the bumps in Aspen." How can you compare Bush's actual lack of Vietnam service--apples--with Dean's--oranges? How about comparing Bush's military service--apples--to Dean's lack of military service--apples?

Jonathan Alter: it would be totally phony to compare the two hours of the cheney lunch with two hours on the internet. that luncheon where they raised $300,000 took weeks of -preparation by the bush-cheney campaign in washington and south carolina. so in fact, the comparison works on dean's behalf--though as i pointed out, bush will still raise much more money.
second, many dean supporters have emailed me upset that i said dean avoided military service in vietnam since he got a deferment on medical grounds. but i see his skiing in aspen at that time as suspicious for a guy who supposedly had a bad back. as for bush, his "champagne unit" in the national guard had no chance of going to vietnam. they were flying outdated aircraft that were no lponger used in combat. this was widely known at the time. also, his second year of national guard service, he transferred to alabama where he was working on winston blount's political campaign. he barely showed up for duty, showing up far less often than required--as was widely reported in 2000. so he has nothing to brag about on this score. both of these guys, in contrast to mccain and kerry, did everything they could to avoid going to vietnam, as did many others of their generation.

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Denver, CO: Why is Howard Dean a "Loony Leftie"and Ronald Reagan and George W. (remember Bob Jones) weren't dismissed as "right wing nut cases". It seems to me that Democrats get painted with the "L" word while Rebuplicans pursue thier agenda's as "compassionate conservatives".

Jonathan Alter: actually, the reagan comparison is a good one. he was widely dismissed as a rightwinger when he ran for president. that's one reason why i don't think all of this stuff about how dean can't possibly win makes sense. as i wrote, that analysis could be right--but it's far from a sure thing that he';s a sure loser.

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Indianapolis, IN: Karl Rove says he wants to face Dean because he'd be easiest to beat. I don't believe Rove -- I think they're actually afraid of Dean, because Dean knows how to kick butt. Do you agree?

Jonathan Alter: no, i think rove thinks he could "dukakis-ize" dean more easily than, say, john edwards. but dean agrees with you, not surprisingly. he told me exactly what you said just last week.
the only argument for rove fearing dean is that he has told friends that dean would get under bush's skin more than the others, which might make him lose his temper in a debate, which could be very costly to bush. so in that sense, you're right. but overall, i still think they would prefer to face dean. they could be wrong about that, though. as i wrote in the cover story, hoover preferred to face FDR in ;32 and Carter preferred to face Reagan in '80. so be careful what you wish for.

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Indianapolis, IN: Republicans love a candidate the excites their base but it seems the Democrats don't. I don't understand that. Dean volunteers I've spoken to know he's a moderate because when the were passing out the flyers, I ask them. Mr. Alter, when the last time you've seen the base of the Democrat Party this excited about a moderate?

Jonathan Alter: excellent question. it's one of the reasons i don't discount dean. if he shifts back to the center nimbly, he could be formidable. but he has to watch it on foreign policy. the dems are way behind their and the general election voters like to see strength there. also, it's early and the dem base could tire of dean.

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Cuyahoga Falls, OH: Does Mr. Dean, if elected President, plan to fund more drug rehabilitation clinics in this country, or does he believe that incarceration is more effective? What are his views on making methadone treatment in particular, more available and affordable to those in need?

Jonathan Alter: i don't know, but my guess is that he would be supportive of more alternative sentencing. just today, not surprisingly, he endorsed the alternative sentencing applied in the case of his son, who was sentenced to a "diversionary" program after being caught trying to steal some beer from a country club in vermont.

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Kendall, FL: Why is Governor Dean gone so far to the left? Why has he given the impression that he's so far to the left as to make Senator Kennedy look like a conservative? As a loyal centrist Democrat (from a decades-long Democrat-voting family), I'm afraid that if the governor gets the Democratic nomination he will be whipped out by Bush by the biggest landslide in HISTORY (65% to 35%). If Governor Dean gets the nomination I will have no choice but to vote for Bush in 2004.

Jonathan Alter: he though going left would help him distinguish himself this year, and it has. we'll see how nimble he is in scampering back toweard the center. if he can't do that, he's not a skillful enough politician to win. if he can, he's got a chance. and it's just factually wrong to say he's to the left of teddy kennedy. on fiscal issues, he's far to the right of kennedy.

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Haverhill, NH: If Dean can mobilize thousands of voters who
voted for Nader, or just didn't vote because they
were disgusted with Gore / Bush in 2000, and the
Democratic Party base, why are so many career
politicians in the Democratic Party sounding off
against him in such a negative way right now? It
seems to me that he is possibly the only
candidate who would have a change against
Bush in 2004 - on ALL ISSUES... taxes, fiscal
policy, social security, medical care, and
international positions.

Jonathan Alter: they're sounding off because they want to beat him. they've invested a lot of time and money and they want to win it for themselves. other moderate democrats genuinely and perhaps accurately believe dean is on a kamikaze mission for the party.

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Part two:

Colton, NY: How would the entrance of Wesley Clark into
the race change the dynamic of the Democractic field, in general, and Howard Dean's campaign in particular?

Jonathan Alter: i think it could have a big impact. i just saw clark last week at a conference in colorado and he was terrific in answering questions. so he could be the next flavor of the month and take some of dean's attention away. if he runs...

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Uniontown, PA: Can Bill Clinton be the Vice President?? Good grief - that would be the answer!!! I've never heard of a law that said a past president cannot be asked to be the VICE president - does one exist?

Jonathan Alter: not possible under the constitution, because the vice president could become president--which is barred to clinton after two terms. it also would be dumb for the democrats to pursue because despite admiration for his presidency, the country is still divided over clinton the man...

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Louisville, KY: Do you think Dean would pull our troops out of Iraq if he becomes president?

Jonathan Alter: good question. no, i don't. i do think he would do more to internationalize the occupation. he is not a pacifist.

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Edwardsville, IL: It seems unlikely that all 9 candidates will make it to the New Hamshire primary and may even miss the Iowa caucuses.

Who do you think will leave before any voting gets started?

Jonathan Alter: i think all nine will make it at least until new hampshire. politics can change so quickly in a few days that none will drop out unless they commit a huge gaffe that immediately dries up all support...

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Madison, WI: When is the media going to stop calling Dean a liberal and start reporting on his populist record? He is way more mainstream than Bush, is that not clear?

Jonathan Alter: that's the challenge for dean now. the reason he has been called that by the media is the same reason reagan was called a conservative--those are the folks who show up at events. if mccain types begin coming in large numbers, dean's ideological coloration in the press will change.

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Thunder Bay, Ontario Canada: Current Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien is in the process of eventually being replaced by a more conservative leader in Paul Martin.
How would relations between Canada and the United States be affected if Howard Dean ever won the Presidential election??

Jonathan Alter: no idea, except that he has more experience in u.s. canadien relations than others candidates because of his experience in vermont.

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Palo Alto, CA: Dean's positions on Israel-Palestine, capitial punishment and gun control show support for a pattern of violence that is a great concern to people such as myself who want a president who supports peace and justice. His position on Israel-Palestine is, by his own admission, close to the right wing Israeli group AIPAC and that of Bush and Sharon. His support for state regulations of guns is a farce--for example all one has to do is go to a state with lax rules to buy a gun. He is the only Democrat to get an "A" rating from the NRA. Finally he supports capital punishment for "heinous" crimes, but what murder isn't heinous. His definition includes "terrorists," but in the current climate anyone can be called a terrorist.

How can peace and justice people, who initially supported Dean because of his early and strong opposition to Bush's war on Iraq, continue to do so when his views on other issues are so inimical to peace and non-violence?

Jonathan Alter: i can't answer that for you. it all depends on how serious you are about beating bush. expecting ideological purity is what gave us nader's campaign, which in turn helped give us bush. do you want to make a statement or a president?

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Dallas, TX: Is'nt it scary that the south can decide a presidential election. Does Dean have any chance down there?

Jonathan Alter: not much, as our reporting found this week. the south, except florida, is bush country. but that may be true for most other democrats, too. i can't see any of them doing well down there. on the other hand, the dem candidate doesn't need the south to win. remember, gore was almost elected without it. if the dems can win new hamsphire or west virginia or florida this time, they win. that's why i believe that whomever gets nominated, bob graham will be numnber two. just a guess...

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Westerville, OH: If nominated, do you think Howard will change his liberal stance for a more moderate one? I support his cause now, but I don't want him to change his message just for public appeal.

Jonathan Alter: yes, he will move toward the center. and if you basically like him, you should hope he does. the center is the only place to be elected from in this country. so again, the question is--do you want to win? of course, there's always a danger for liberals that he would go too far and flip flop his positions. i think it's too late for that. he's not going to suddenly be pro-iraq war. but he is already saying that he supported gulf war I and is not a pacifist.

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Honolulu, HI: Looney Liberal like McGovern? Don't pay any
attention to that garbage! Look who McGovern
lost to. The biggest walking piece of garbage this
country ever had reside in the White House.
Resident Bush trails only Dickless Nixon as the
most pathetic President this proud country ever
had.

Jonathan Alter: good point. also, the mcgovern campaign was in a different time. dean might well lose to bush, but i just don't see a 49-state wipeout...

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Chattaroy, WA: I'd like to get a feeling for how Howard Dean would approach North Korea - what sort of policy he'd take with North Korea - who he might choose for a Secretary of State and who he admires (living or dead) when it comes to foreign policy.

I will likely be going to a Dean Meetup in Spokane, Washington, tomorrow. I will also very likely be voting for Dean for President if given the chance to do so. I'm greatly impressed with his social and environmental policies. But, I know little about how Dean would handle foreign policy.

Jonathan Alter: he might end up being quite tough on north korea, but i think for now he favors opening talks. you might check with the campaign for more details. he doesn't say whom he'd pick for secretary of state, but you can bet that bill clinton might be a candidate for that job in any democratic administration.

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Part three:

Milton, VT: When Dean runs against Bush, he'll be attacked as weak on foriegn policy. Would he consider running someone like Wes Clark as his VP to counter that?


Jonathan Alter: yes, he or graham would both be possibilities. clark's problem is he has no base. most military folks are for bush.

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Davie, FL: What is Mr. Dean's plan to create jobs? The liberals are known for being really good at this? If Mr Dean stand for the rights of all Americans, no matter their race or sexual orientation, he is axactly what this country needs. This current Administration has gone as far as the Supreme Court to dis-enfranchise Americans, and Bush feels stronger about protecting his Saudi business partners than he does about the 9/11 families. How does the media ignore the fact James Baker's lawfirm is representing the Saudi royal family against the 9/11 families! There has not been one positive event since the Supreme Court selected this President!

Jonathan Alter: the saudi connection is key. i'm surprised there hasn't been more attention paid to this issue...

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San Francisco, CA: You compare Dean to Carter but I don't think Dean would appreciate the comparison. Carter might have won, but he is considered one of the worst presidents in history.

Jonathan Alter: i was comparing their campaigns, not their prospective presidencies. at this point, dean would just like to replicate carter's success in coming from nowhere to win the nomination.
as for a dean presidency, i think some liberals would be very disappointed because he is not a big spender and would not be sentimental about killing certain programs, especially entitlements, to balance the budget...

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Montclair, NJ: It is always stated that Dean can't win, yet I do not see how any of the "4 Washingtonians" could win since they voted for most of Bush's policies and are now arguing that those same policies were wrong. It makes them seem more "political" in their complaints as well as make it easier for Rove to paint them as hypocrites.

Follow up question is regarding the DLC and their attack on Dean. Has the DLC explained their continuing losing streak in Congressional elections, especially in 2002? Clinton is their only success story. Even Gore lost following the DLC strategy.

Jonathan Alter: hi, montclair...i live in your town. i think if the economy worsens, the four washington candidates could also be successful against bush. their tax cuts, for instance, were not the same giveaways to the top one percent. i also think the DLC attack on dean was ill-advised, but their basic idea--that any dem must prove first that he can be trusted on the security issue--is still very important. and it is a threshold dean will have to cross to win the election should he be nominated.

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Jackson WI: With Mr. Dean's success in fundraising online, will he be able to give the homeless people of Milwaukee something better than cigarettes for their votes?

Jonathan Alter: i think that was a shaggy dog story from 2000. and if there was some truth, it wasn't decisive even in a close state like wisconsin.

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East Lansing, MI: I hear a lot about the recent press coverage of Dean meaning that he is "peaking too early." As a Dean supporter, I tend to believe that it shows momentum, and that his ever-growing numbers of supporters, MeetUp attendees, and so on demonstrates that he hasn't peaked yet. What are your thoughts on the recent Dean media blitz?

Jonathan Alter: i think he hasn't peaked yet AND he might be peaking too early. five and a half months is a long time to maintain this kind of energy and momentum. look how carter failed in late primaries (he lost them to jerry brown) in 1976. these booms have a life cycle. dean's got the money, however, to keep going when the hype ends...

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Edwardsville, IL: It is very early but if you had to handicap the race right now who are the two that will end up battling it out for the nomination?

Also, what are the odds that Cheney, despite his comments, may not run for a second term as VP?

Jonathan Alter: it's too early and any prediction will look dumb. i just don't know. (those are words you don't hear often from pundits!) and i don't want to make up an answer.

on your second question, i think cheney will be on the ticket.

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Cambridge, MA: Do you think Dean's online fundraising success will set the standard for future elections? Do you think we'll see more of a push towards online fundraising vs $1000-a-plate dinners?

Jonathan Alter: yes, you've put your finger on why i thought we were right to put dean on the cover. he's the first to crack the code on internet fundraising, even if he doesn't get the nomination. this is a hugely important change in politics and in returning our government to the people. it's the best way to smash big money in politics.
"cyber-stumping" as i call it, is the wave of the future.

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Los Angeles, CA: Do you think Dean's early lead will help or hurt Kerry and Gephardt in the long run?

Jonathan Alter: the CW is that it hurts both because dean is even or even a bit ahead of them in iowa and new hampshire. but if one or the other comes back to beat dean, it will mean more, which will help their chances. dean's emergence changes the expectations game. it used to be that a narrow loss to dean would knock either out. no longer.

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Houston, TX: Jonathan,
Do you really think it is fair for literally everyone in the press to say that Dean can't win in November? It seem the democratic leadership is trying to use the same strategy that didn't work in 1994 or 2002. Dean isn't cautious or a waffler and he points out what the press is reluctant to point out about the Bush Administration. I think he is the only one who can beat Bush. What is your take?

Jonathan Alter: if you read my cover story, you'll see that i thbink it is way premature to say he can't win. it's also too early to say he would be the best candidate. let's let the process play out a bit.

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Lexington Park, MD: I am originally from Essex Jct, VT and moved to Lexington Park, Maryland last year after graduating from the University of Vermont. I could not stay in Vermont because there are no jobs. I would love you to ask Dean as to what condition he has left the state of Vermont in. To give you a hint, he has left the State in an economic disaster. The Universities have no funding, ACT 60 was a disaster, IBM is leaving Vermont (it's largest employer and largest source of tax dollars), and thousands are losing their jobs. What arrogant comeback does he have for this question. I really dislike Dean because he is out for himself. He never cared for Vermonters, and won't care for Americans as a whole. Bush will certainly succeed in the next Presidential Election if Dean is chosen to run as the Democratic candidate.

Jonathan Alter: i did ask him in my interview last week why vermont has so much less development than new hampshire. his answer was not too good. you will be hearing more about all of this. (I also mentioned ACT 60, without calling it that. it's a school equalization bill he signed that will be very controversial nationaly when the details are known).

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East Lansing, MI: Why is a quote from Tom Bevan, who is a conservative blogger, supposed to represent an alternative view, as in supporter vs. "supporter?" He hardly is an "average" voter - he is predisposed to oppose Dean from the start. Moreover, he indicates that he was taken grossly out of context (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/commentary.html#8_04_03_0826) in his quotes. How do you justify including him in your article, and how do you respond to his allegations of being misquoted?

Jonathan Alter: i didn't know he thought he was misquoted. i do know he was sore that i didn't flack his blog. why should i have? the piece wasn't about him. and i never made him out to be an "average" voter--just a conservative who wanted dean because he thought he'd be easier to beat for bush. all very clear. lots of people have blogs and we don't flack them in the mag, so he should pipe down. does he prefer i didn't mention him at all? we could have used another example...

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Thurmont, MD: Do you think Dean's poor showing on Sunday political shows such as "Meet the Press" has had a major impact on his campaign?

Jonathan Alter: interestingly, it helped him in fundraising. but it hurt among political cogniscenti who thought his performance was unpresidential. i thought so, but he was much better in an earlier appearance on the show, so he might have been having a bad day. we'llsee what happens next time

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St Charles, IL: How can we get the other 8 Democrats (and the unions) to give up their crazy missions and back Dean? I mean, Gephardt, puhleeze, just fade away for once.

Jonathan Alter: the only way to make people go away in politics is to beat them.

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Bend, OR: As a northern democrat, who do you think Dean would pick as a running mate in the hope of gaining much needed southern voters?

Jonathan Alter: as i said, probably graham but maybe clark.

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Cary, IL: Will Dean be visting near Chicago any time soon?

Jonathan Alter: i believe he goes there often to raise money. and it's one of his stops for a rally later this month. see deanforamerica.com

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Lebanon, NH: How much longer can Kerry keep quiet and watch Dean surge, and what are the dangers in going after Dean?

Jonathan Alter: he's not keeping quiet about dean any more. the danger is, you look negative. but it's gonna get messy...

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Edwardsville, IL: Is there any change Al Gore or Hillary Clinton will make their way into this race?

If Gore gets in, what does that do to Liebermann?

Jonathan Alter: neither will get in.

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Sherman Oaks, CA: Jonathan,

How do you characterize Dean's assertion that middle class taxes are actually rising under Bush, because property taxes are going through the roof?

Jonathan Alter: i think its a good argument. those property taxes are often going to pay for schools that are forced to comply with federal mandates but aren't given enough money by congress--because of the tax cut--to do so. also, state tuition is soaring. if the dems can conect that to bush, it could pay off for them.

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Kansas City, KS: How will General Clark's entering the race affect Dean's momentum--Clark is much more of a centrist who has been against the war and he could challenge Bush in all areas of military, security, foreign policy, etc?

Jonathan Alter: he could take some of the wind out of dean's sails if he gets in...

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Austin, TX: Is it your perception that Bush and the GOP have been using 9/11 for political gain? Do you or any of the candidates have the backbone to nail them on this?


Jonathan Alter: yes, i believe they have been doing so. by scheduling the GOP convention in New York with a trip to ground zero, they will do even more of that. but i think it may backfire because many survivors of 9/11 victims are angry at bush and may appear in ads for democrats before this is all over.

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Galveston, TX: Do you believe that corporations do not pay their fair share of taxes and that the tax burden mostly falls on middle-class (and lower) individuals and families? How would Dean correct that, if he became president?

Jonathan Alter: he would repeal the bush tax cuts which are heavily weighted toward the wealthy. that would bring us back to where the tax system was under clinton. it hardly sapped innovation then--and wouldn't in the future. the tax cut, to my mind, was a huge mistake economically. whether it was a mistake politically depends on how the economy does between now and the election.

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Arlington, VA: Jonathan, I thought your piece was excellent - really insightful and helpful in examining the intrigue behind Howard Dean. I am a Democrat who had been wavering between supporting Kerry and Dean, and I think your piece actually pushed me into the Dean camp.

I think Dean's "two-faced" political credentials will actually help him in this race. He picks up points with the ultra-lefties and disaffected Democrats for his unfettered candor but he also survives with the rest of centrist America because of his moderate record that hasn't fully been explored yet.

What do you think of this theory?

Jonathan Alter: thanks for the plug. it's a good theory. the only question i have is how nimbly dean skips back toward the center. he needs to show strength on foreign policy and national security--perhaps by hitting bush on poor homeland security execution. if he just sounds whiney about the UN and poor respect for the US abroad, he'll lose--even if he's right substantively.

thanks everyone for showing up!!!

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MacBeth:

I love Dean. I actually prefer him to Kerry right now (by a lot) though I'd be happy with either of them. I'm also not entirely convinced Kerry's more electable than Dean. I think they both have strengths and weaknesses there and it remains to be seen how well they'll capitalize on their strengths and address their weaknesses. Dean's perceived as weak on foreign policy, but against who? No major contender for president's ever been perceived as weaker on foreign policy experience or knowledge than candidate Bush. God isn't finished with Dean on this. Likewise Kerry's shown signs of fire in the belly. He'd better show more if he wants to play with Dean. We don't need another Gore style nominee and while Kerry wouldn't be exactly that, there's a reason Dean's so hot right now.

My response to your Dem thread is that it's too early to worry about dissent within the party. They won't have any problem uniting behind a nominee when the time comes. All primary battles are contentious this early. All of them. If Dean's the nominee, I promise you Lieberman will vote for him. He will probably actively campaign for him. Same goes for any of the other majors, either as nominee or advocate.

The 7 questions thread is great. I'm following it with interest and laughing my ass off about how no one but giddyup will even try to answer the questions and how giddyup's answers there, sincere though I'm sure they are, remind me of his equivocation in the Ted Nugent thread. I'm bored with calling those other guys out. It's no fun to argue with people who get trounced and then throw victory parties. These guys have turned into parodies of the Iraqi intelligence minister. I understand why they'd take a break from the board while everything that supported their positions is falling apart and I don't miss them at all. They resist or ignore any meaningful debate and they give me a headache.

Did you read the article on the Iraq nuclear program thing in Achebe's thread? It blew my mind. It's very long, but that shouldn't be a problem for you.