More Middle East Justice

First just some international laws that Israel has been breaking and refuses to acknowledge or halt.

Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip violate international law.

Article 49, paragraph 6 of the Fourth Geneva Convention explicitly stipulates "the occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies".

Article 46 of the Hague Convention prohibits the confiscation of private property in occupied territory. The confiscation of land by the Israeli government for settlement construction is in violation of this article.

Article 55 of the Hague Convention stipulates that "the occupying state shall be regarded only as administrator and usufructuary of public buildings, real estate, forests, and agricultural estates belonging to the hostile State, and situated in the occupied country. It must safeguard the capital of these properties, and administer them in accordance with the rules of usufruct." This means that the occupying power does not become the owner of the territories and properties of the occupied country and does not use them for serving the interests of its civilians. This rule applies to all of the occupied territory's natural resources.

The United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 calls for "just and lasting peace". The confiscated territories on which the settlements are built were confiscated illegally and in war.
The United Nations Security Council Resolution 465, which was unanimously adopted, made it clear that "Israel's policy and practices of settling parts of its population and new immigrants" in the occupied territories constitute "a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East". The Security Council called upon Israel to "dismantle the existing settlements and in particular to cease, on an urgent basis, the establishment, construction of planning of settlements in the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem. http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/settlement.html

"In general terms, the Fourth Geneva Convention protects the civilian population of occupied territories against abuses on the part of an Occupying Power, in particular by ensuring that it is not discriminated against, that it is protected against all forms of violence, and that despite occupation and war it is allowed to live as normal a life as possible, in accordance with its own laws, culture and traditions. While humanitarian law confers certain rights on the Occupying Power, it also imposes limits on the scope of its powers. Being only a temporary administrator of occupied territory, the Occupying Power must not interfere with its original economic and social structures, organization, legal system or demography. It must ensure the protection, security and welfare of the population living under occupation. This also implies allowing the normal development of the territory, if the occupation lasts for a prolonged period of time."

Israeli settlements are in clear violation of the law. But that's not all they do. They create an unequal system in almost every way for Palestinians. These are normal, farmers, workers etc. and not terrorists. These laws apply to all Palestinians.

"More precisely, the Fourth Geneva Convention sets out rules aimed at safeguarding the dignity and physical integrity of persons living under occupation, including detainees. It prohibits all forms of physical and mental ill-treatment and coercion, collective punishment, and reprisals against protected persons or property. It also prohibits the transfer of parts of the Occupying Power's civilian population into the occupied territory, forcible transfer or deportation of protected persons from the occupied territory, and destruction of real or personal property, except when such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations."

Israel is again guilty of violating the collective punishment aspects of international law too.

". In the course of its activities in the territories occupied by Israel, the ICRC has repeatedly noted breaches of various provisions of international humanitarian law, such as the transfer by Israel of parts of its population into the occupied territories, the destruction of houses, failure to respect medical activities, and detention of protected persons outside the occupied territories. "http://www.icrc.org/icrceng.nsf/bdbc6ea35567c6634125673900241f2e/420e0fd553ff26bec1256b190030fce7?OpenDocument

Again it's illegal to move portions of an occupying nation's civilians into occupied territories.

Just pointing out that laws are broken doesn't really give a good look at how normal people are affected. Here are some examples.

Water is a scarce and valuable commodity there. Here is some of how the water is divided up.

"Immediately after their 1967 conquest of the West Bank and Gaza, Israeli military occupation authorities issued orders to the effect that no new wells were to be drilled to supply water to the Palestinian population. All new wells drilled in the ensuing 28 years provide water only for Israel and for the Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

Israeli wells have proliferated to the point that 80 percent of the water pumped from West Bank acquifers now is diverted to Israeli usage, reducing the Palestinian portion to only 20 percent. The total pumping rate has reached the maximum, or average annual rainfall replacement rate of the aquifer, and is possibly beyond the safe point, given the highly variable rainfall of this semi-desert region.

The drilling of new and deeper wells by the Israelis has diminished the output of the Palestinian wells. Many of the latter have dried up completely because Israeli authorities will not issue permits to deepen them, even where the water table has dropped. The water from the remaining wells now has to serve the needs of a vastly increased Palestinian population.

When the drilling of new wells by the Palestinians was forbidden at the beginning of the military occupation, West Bank population was 940,000 (World Bank figures based on the Israeli census taken immediately after the conquest). No census of West Bank Palestinians has been taken since then. However, 1993 estimates ranged from the low Israeli figure of 1.9 million to the high Palestinian figure of 2.15 million, the latter taking account of the 150,000 Palestinians of East Jerusalem. Since the West Bank population is growing exponentially at a rate above three percent, it may be expected to reach more than 2.3 million in 1999 when the final status agreement is scheduled to take effect. This estimate takes no account of immigration to the West Bank from the Palestinian diaspora nor, indeed, of the possibility that no permanent agreement on West Bank autonomy will be reached.

Because the 1967 supply rate already was insufficient and the current severe water shortage grows worse year by year, something must be done to relieve the Palestinian water crisis, and quickly. But the Israelis refuse to yield any of their share of water to the Palestinians. It is in these circumstances that Israeli insistence on the extension of the status quo for another four years presents the Palestinians with an insurmountable problem. So long as exclusive Israeli control of West Bank water continues, there is ample water for the Jewish settlers but almost none for their Palestinian neighbors. "http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1095/9510013.htm

Settlements limit Palestinian access to natural resources such as water and agricultural land. This is especially problematic for the Palestinians since it is estimated that their population will double within the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to five million by the year 2010.x

There are 115 settlements located over water highly sensitive areas, and 25 settlements over water sensitive areas.xi
Three million Palestinians are allowed to use 250 million cubic meters of water per annum (83 cubic meters for each Palestinian per year) while six million Israelis enjoy the use of 2.0 billion cubic meters (333 cubic meter for each Israeli per year), which means that one Israeli consumes as much water as do four Palestinians.xii Each Israeli settler is allocated 1450 cubic meters per year. http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/settlement.html

Schooling is aother inequity.
S"econd Class: Discrimination Against Palestinian Arab Children in Israel's Schools, is based on Human Rights Watch investigations at twenty-six Arab and Jewish schools and on nationwide statistics compiled by the Israeli government. Nearly one-quarter of Israel's 1.6 million schoolchildren are Palestinian Arab citizens and are educated in schools run by the Israeli government, but operated separately from those of the Jewish majority. The report found striking differences in virtually every aspect of the education system. The Education Ministry does not allocate as much money per head for Palestinian Arab children as it does for Jewish children. Their classes are 20 percent larger on average. They get far fewer enrichment and remedial programs-even though they need them more-in part because the Ministry uses a different scale to assess need for Jewish children. Their school buildings are in worse condition, and many communities lack kindergartens for three and four-year-olds. Palestinian Arab schoolchildren do not have the same access to counseling and vocational programs. One of the largest gaps is in special education, where disabled Palestinian Arab children get less funding and fewer services, have limited access to special schools, and lack appropriate curricula."http://hrw.org/reports/world/is-ot-pa-pubs.php

There are also Jewish only roads which are created from seized Palestinian lands. These roads are for Jewish Settlers and military only. Palestinians may not use them.

By-pass Roads ix
The continued building of new by-pass roads and the extension of existing bypass roads is a major disruption to the Palestinian economy, autonomy and society.

The by-pass network allows the Israeli military to occupy Palestinian land with roads. The network divides the Palestinian areas into Bantustans separated and surrounded by military controlled roads. Furthermore, the by-pass network prevents the expansion and development of Palestinian towns and villages, which results in overcrowding, and prevents Palestinian territorial contiguity.
The by-pass roads link Israeli settlements to each other and to Israel. This easy access allows for attractive living conditions for settlers, thus lead to the expansion of settlements.
The network undermines the economy of the Palestinians by restricting Palestinian movement and impeding the flow of commerce and workers from area to area. In addition, the confiscation of agricultural land, closing of stone quarries and destruction of houses has impoverished many Palestinians. The by-pass road network violates both international humanitarian and human rights standards as well as the interim Israeli-Palestinian Agreements.
The roads built along the green line and around Jerusalem extend Israel's borders beyond the green line and around an expanded Jerusalem. http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/settlement.html

Basically the Israelis are doing everything possible to keep the Palestinians poor and prevent a Palestinian state.

"Background on Israeli Colonization

The scope and type of land affected by Israeli colonization of the Palestinian territory is determined by the unique geopolitical ambitions of Israel to create an ethnic Jewish state in as much of historical Palestine as possible. Two primary goals guide the expropriation of Palestinian land for the colonization project: expansion and separation from the Palestinian population. Though Likud emphasizes the former and Labor the latter, both of Israel’s main political parties juggle these two goals as they extend and reinforce Israeli control over the Palestinian territory. Land is therefore chosen for expropriation on hilltops overlooking and surrounding Palestinian built-up areas, areas that block the merging of Palestinian built-up areas while facilitating the merging of colonies, areas that may be easily annexed to Israeli proper in the future, or that secure economic resources, militarily advantage or negotiating leverage. In total, Israel controls 60% of the West Bank and 22% of Gaza Strip.

The growth of colonies is mainly geared to the formation of blocks; i.e. they grow outwards and towards each other. Successive Israeli governments have encouraged the development of specific blocks more than others. The result of such growth is the grouping of Palestinian towns and villages into many separate cantons. Indeed, the Israeli intention is to make the contiguity of any Palestinian state in the future practically unattainable."http://www.poica.org/casestudies/bethlehem-comprehensive/index.htm

"The Planning System

The planning system on the West Bank, implemented by the Civil Administration, is one of the most powerful mechanisms of the Israeli occupation. As with the other bureaucratic systems, the planning system operates on two distinct tracks: one for Jews and the other for Palestinians.

This system is responsible for transforming the map of the West Bank because it is the planning system that approves the outline plans for the settlements and issues building permits for the establishment and expansion of settlements and for the construction of by-pass roads. Israel changed the composition of the planning institutions on the West Bank and transferred numerous planning powers to the Jewish local authorities, while expropriating these powers from Palestinian planning institutions.

While facilitating Jewish settlement, the planning system works vigorously to restrict the development of Palestinian communities. The main tool used to this end is to reject requests for building permits filed by Palestinians. In most cases, the requests are rejected on the grounds that the regional outline plans - approved in the 1940s during the British Mandate - prohibit construction in the relevant area of land. These plans do not reflect the development needs of the Palestinian population, and the planning system deliberately refrains from preparing revised plans. Houses built by Palestinians without building permits are demolished by the Civil Administration, even in cases when the construction took place on private land.

After the signing of the interim accord in 1995, planning powers in areas A and B - which account for approximately forty percent of the area of the West Bank - were transferred to the Palestinian Authority. While the vast majority of the Palestinian population lives in these areas, the vacant land available for construction in dozens of villages and towns across the West Bank is situated on the margins of the communities and defined as area C. The Israeli planning authorities continue to control planning and construction in these areas."http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/Land_Grab_2002.asp

Sorry if there is too long for anyone to read. There is just so much information out there about it.

None of this discrimination and injustice on the part of the ISraelis justifies terrorism by the Palestinians. Nothing can ever justify that. But these things were going on before the intifada, and would continiue if all terrorism stopped. These are laws and aren't dependent on whether or not terrorism exists or don't exist.

I have a bunch of other stuff that's in hard cover that can't be posted.

Flame away if you wish, and hopefully it will lead to some discussion.

 

Because the war was against other Arab nations that attacked it. Egypt, Jordan etc. It wasn't against the Palestinians, who were supposed to have a country by the same UN resolution that gave Israel it's statehood.

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a...852560c3005da209?OpenDocument&Highlight=2,242
Resolution 242 (1967)
of 22 November 1967

The Security Council,

Expressing its continuing concern with the grave situation in the Middle East,

Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,

Emphasizing further that all Member States in their acceptance of the Charter of the United Nations have undertaken a commitment to act in accordance with Article 2 of the Charter,

1. Affirms that the fulfilment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

2. Affirms further the necessity

(a) For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area;

(b) For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;

(c) For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political independence of every State in the area, through measures including the establishment of demilitarized zones;"

It's also inaccurate to say that the war was entirely DEFENSIVE on the part of Israel. This information is from Jewish group called Jews for Justice.
http://www.cactus48.com/partition.html
"Before the end of the mandate and, therefore before any possible intervention by Arab states, the Jews, taking advantage of their superior military preparation and organization, had occupied...most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948...In contrast, the Palestine Arabs did not seize any of the territories reserved for the Jewish state under the partition resolution."

The Zionists were attacking the Palestinians prior to Israel's statehood. That doesn't make it a DEFENSIVE war.
http://www.cactus48.com/statehood.html
"Was the part of Palestine assigned to a Jewish state in mortal danger from the Arab armies?

"The Arab League hastily called for its member countries to send regular army troops into Palestine. They were ordered to secure only the sections of Palestine given to the Arabs under the partition plan. But these regular armies were ill equipped and lacked any central command to coordinate their efforts...[Jordan's King Abdullah] promised [the Israelis and the British] that his troops, the Arab Legion, the only real fighting force among the Arab armies, would avoid fighting with Jewish settlements...Yet Western historians record this as the moment when the young state of Israel fought off "the overwhelming hordes' of five Arab countries. In reality, the Israeli offensive against the Palestinians intensified." "Our Roots Are Still Alive," by the Peoples Press Palestine Book Project."

In fact it may be that the attacks were defensive on the part of the Arab nations.

"Ethnic cleansing of the Arab population of Palestine

"Joseph Weitz was the director of the Jewish National Land Fund...On December 19, 1940, he wrote: 'It must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country...The Zionist enterprise so far...has been fine and good in its own time, and could do with 'land buying' - but this will not bring about the State of Israel; that must come all at once, in the manner of a Salvation (this is the secret of the Messianic idea); and there is no way besides transferring the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer them all; except maybe for Bethlehem, Nazareth and Old Jerusalem, we must not leave a single village, not a single tribe'...There were literally hundreds of such statements made by Zionists." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."

Ethnic cleansing - continued

"Following the outbreak of 1936, no mainstream (Zionist) leader was able to conceive of future coexistence without a clear physical separation between the two peoples - achievable only by transfer and expulsion. Publicly they all continued to speak of coexistence and to attribute the violence to a small minority of zealots and agitators. But this was merely a public pose..Ben Gurion summed up: 'With compulsory transfer we (would) have a vast area (for settlement)...I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it,'" Israel historian, Benny Morris, "Righteous Victims."

""The Zionists made no secret of their intentions, for as early as 1921, Dr. Eder, a member of the Zionist Commission, boldly told the Court of Inquiry, 'there can be only one National Home in Palestine, and that a Jewish one, and no equality in the partnership between Jews and Arabs, but a Jewish preponderance as soon as the numbers of the race are sufficiently increased.' He then asked that only Jews should be allowed to bear arms."

This kind of aggression was going on prior to Israel's statehood.

 

The 4th geneva convention deals with it. It also doesn't matter whether or not it will be enforced, though maybe it should be enforced.

The fact is that it's totally unjust. I think that's what makes the whole situation so horrible over there. Israel is oppressing, and discriminating against these people based on their nationality.

Then some Palestinians do immense dammage to their cause by using terrorism to fight it. Sadly they are seen as heroes to too many Palestinians and the cycle continues.

The U.S. doesn't have to give Israel so much money and weaponry. They could use this as pressure to see a more just and less opressive way of doing things.

 

That's a nifty saying and all, but has little to do with fact, is one sided, and nowhere did I or anyone else call on Israel to lay down their weapons.

There are plenty of quotes to show that Israel has a history of not wanting to co-exist with Palestinians, and a Palestinian state. In fact Sharon's party voted to never recognize a Palestinian State.

Some of the measures taken by Israel would in no way cause any negative effect in regards to terrorism and may have a positive one.

How would allowing the Palestinian children to attend shcools that are equally funded to the schools Israeli children attend, cause more terrorism?

How would allowing the Palestinians to actually have new wells, and a fair share in water allotment cause more terrorism?

There is no possible way it would cause more terrorism.

Sadly Israel has set up a system with two sets of laws. One for Palestinians and one for Israelis. The system of law is based only on nationality.

Most Americans opposed the system of Apartheid in S. Africa. This is possibly worse, and I believe if most Americans new the kind of injustice the Palestinians faced, they might put pressure on Israel.

 

Ref, I'm sorry I haven't studied as much about the IRA England/Northern Ireland scenario.

From what I do know I think it's a valid comparison, with a couple of differences.

I think the destruction of homes, the treatment of people as second class citizens etc. is very comporable. The military occupation is also seems to be similar. I'm sorry I can't comment further, but it's my own ignorance about the IRA situation that prevents it.

There are a couple of differences from what I can tell.

I believe the fact that water is such a crucial commodity, and the fact that its a resource the ISraelis are taken from Palestinian areas and allowing Israelis to use it while denying it to the Palestinians is something that I don't think can compare.

But of course both groups were oppressed and factions from both groups resorted to bombs to try and improve their situations.

 

Yes, but things can change. South Africa was for a long time an ally and bigtime trading partner.

Eventually we brought sanctions against S. Africa. True Regan tried to stop those sanctions, but Congress won out in that issue. Sanctions were brought, and the system in S. Africa changed.

Perhaps our stance with Israel needs to change as well.

Anytime there are two sets of laws for people based solely on nationality it's wrong. The U.S. is in unique position to do something about that.

 

Israelis have proclaimed the exact same things about not being able to live with Palestinians and that they wouldn't stop until Israel had it all, and drove off all of the Arab peoples. Even today people run around asking 'why can't Jordan take them in?' In fact Israeli policy of settlements and crippling any legitimate Palestinian source of economic independence seems they are putting their plans to action.

There are people on both sides who don't want to live with the other.

There was also some violent stages in the S. Africans struggle for equal rights. That changed too.

I'm not suggesting that Israelis stop fighting against terrorists, or that they give in to people who don't want Israel to exist.

I do think that having two sets of laws based on nationality is wrong, and it's not connected with terrorism.

The current Palestinian leadership as bad as they are have stated time and time again that they do want a Palestinian state alongside an Israeli state. They recognize Israel's right to exist. They didnt' use to do that, but fortunately things can change.

The Arab nations including Syria have also said they would be willing to normalize relations with Israel, and recognize it's right to exist. Their are Palestinian terrorist groups that feel differently, and there people in the Israeli government who don't feel that a Palestinian state should exist, and want to drive out all the Palestinians. It goes both ways.