This is starting to look more like Israel's recent occupations in the Middle East (Lebanon and the West Bank/Gaza) than post war Japan and Germany. In Lebanon the Israelis were in the first few weeks viewd as liberators as they helped break the hold of the PLO and the foreign Palestinians. In the West Bank and Gaza, Moshe Dayan and other Israeli idealists thought that they could coop the Palestinians by giving them jobs, electricity, running water and democracy. Funny thing about freedom, people want to be free to do it their way. Now I realize that the US is trying to install Iraqi born Chalabi a U of Chicago neocon , but it is only natural that he is viewed an outsider and US puppet. ********************************* bbc story on thousands in Baghdad chalabi
YAWN !!!! It will work out....get the power up, the crews working, and the people will settle down. DD
Yeah...well maybe if our forces did what our government said they were going to do when they invaded and took over Iraq...which is basically protect Iraq's interests meaning not just oil-related but museums and infrastructure...they wouldn't be so eager to see us leave. We blew it, however. I feel lied to by our government. They had a plan all along and kept saying how they would protect everything. All lies. We knew this was going to happen with all the looting and so forth. Britain took over or "liberated" the one town and it set the first example of what happens when you liberate a town but do nothing to keep the security. Then, we turn around and replicate the exact same situations. Dumb. That whole debacle turned them all against us right there. Part of my definition of occupation is when you let the whole place go to hell. That was defined by Israel in how they conduct their occupation activities within Palestinian territories. We did the worst possible thing we could have done...liberate a country into chaos. We lost the faith and trust of the Iraqi people who had little reason to trust us before. We basically sealed that lack of faith and trust. We ensured our fate as being labeled an "occupier" . It's time to get the hell out of dodge as soon as possible. If they think were occupying now, what are they going to think about all these American companies coming over and rebuilding their infrastructure? That is just more occupation. I'm sure they would rather have Arabs rebuild their infrastructure. It's kind of ironic that we let the Iraqis loot and destroy their own infrastructure and then we turn around and award American companies to rebuild their infrastructure. You wouldn't have to rebuild the infrastructure if you didn't let all hell break loose in the first place. So, the war went fine and all until we actually achieved our goals. Then, they basically blew it. I don't trust our government after what happened. They clearly lied to us over and over about how they would protect Iraqi interests. They failed. Now, their trying to pull their collective heads out of their arses and make up for it...like sicking the FBI on people who already destroyed many museum artifacts and stole the rest. Better late than never seems to be our government's calling now. In my opinion, it's too late. We had our chance to prove to the Iraqis that we would liberate and protect them. That is what we get for rushing in so fast with limited troops. We sat back and said "oh...this is a normal part of liberation...letting the Iraqi people destroy and loot everything they want....their expressing themselves after years of repression...". Shut the f*ck up, Rumsfeld...you excuse mongul. I guess we can hope to regain some of that trust but fat chance...it's too late. The fun part starts when our companies come in. Occupiers rebuild Iraq with their own companies and resources while keeping the UN in check. Don't let the Iraqis or a new Iraqi government choose who gets to rebuild Iraq. We get to choose because....we are the occupier and that's what occupiers do. I'm kind of bitter and sour at how the liberation unfolded...obviously . Granted, war is never easy or pretty. But, we could have taken substantial steps that we said we would take but we didn't. Therefore, we blew our chance at proving to the Iraqis what were all about. Our message is screw your history and museums....we our protecting the oil ministry and oil hardware...nothing else. Don't even talk about other government ministries, banks, or businesses. Bah...
This is a perfect example of the type of thread I will be attempting to avoid. Just wanted to clear that up. Thank you for your time.
Naive, Hardly... I guess the Iraqi people are just showing their new found freedom by protesting. They certainly couldn't do that 2 months ago. DD
Yep, they're demonstrating.... Iraqi demonstrators carry an anti-President Bush and anti-Saddam Hussein banner as they march after Friday prayers at the Abu-Hanifa mosque in Baghdad Friday, April 18, 2003. Thousands of Muslim demostrators, both Sunni and Shiite, marched in Baghdad outside the mosque calling for the expulsion of American forces from Iraq. (Ap Photo/Hussein Malla)
Golly, Who would have expected religious zealots to want another doomed Theocracy in Iraq? This is why we will be there a long time. Once the average Iraqi's life is improved, they will get used to their freedoms and new democracy. It will take time, they don't know what they want yet.....I am pretty sure the Kurds weren't asking for a theocracy. DD
PGabrial, Isn't that demostration proof that they are enjoying their freedom? Our values? I think it is up to them to decide that...all I am saying is improve the quality of life for the average man/woman on the street. DD
Thank you for mentioning this. All that had to be done was post a guard at the doors of the museum (and other buildings) and such a catastrophe could have been avoided. This is not just Iraqi heritage, this is the heritage of the entire world, civilization. It certainly has made people in my field livid all over the world. It was really funny when Rumsfeld said something about trying to pay for the recovery of the museum objects (those that were not destroyed), not realizing that he was talking about billions of dollars.
Oh, man! We're here to give you Freedom! Now you get to choose! What? No...wrong choice there bud. Try again...No...not that one either. Clearly you don't get this...when we say You get to choose in your own country, what we clearly mean is that you get to choose a version of what we want. Didn't they explain freedom to you at the door? Clearly we will have to be here a long time until you learn the kind of freedom we want you to have...But you will have it, we assure you. It is your country after all...
That there are thousands of very religious Iraqis roused-up by clerics who want power and an Islamic nation does not necessarily mean that the other 20+ million don't want a secular state.
I dunno if anyone caught this but Bush has said Iraqis can choose their form of government and then said Iraq must become a Democracy. Pretty funny stuff.
This is probably what is going on. I didn't even know there was protesting going on until I looked at some picture gallery about the museum on CNN's website. Am I the only person who finds it funny that the protests seemed to have started after we began to curb the looting?
Good post, Surf. I'll add further that our recent "introduction" of the US dollar currency into Iraq also has a less-than-sincere motive behind it. Since 1999, Iraq has sold its oil only in exchange for Euros. The US federal reserve hopes to change that. Because when you maintain the need for the world's countries to keep US dollars in their reserves in order to purchase the oil they need, you get a free ride. And then you can just print billions of dollars each week (to make your deficit interest payments) with no resultant detriment to the currency's actual value
That sounds an awful lot like another country that I knew. According to the media's coverage of antiwar demonstrations, you would think that the country's population is against war. You'd never know that 70% of this hypothetical nation's people support the war.
Lookup Algeria. In 1991 Islamic fundamentalists won the popular election. Algeria's been a military dictatorship since they overthrew the elected government almost immediately afterwards. Fundamentalists would probably win in Pakistan and most other Arab Islamic majority countries if they held elections today. 2/3's of Iraq is Shiite, Kurds way in the minority. The protests started almost immediately, there just wasn't any coverage in mainstream US media.
