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More bad news for Kerry

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Faos, Jun 4, 2004.

  1. Faos

    Faos Member

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    Gas prices are starting to drop. Price could be down 20 cents by the end of the summer. This can't be good news for Kerry. I wonder how many of the Bush haters are pissed about this? I mean, it should be good news for everyone, but it doesn't help their cause.


    Relief at the pump in sight

    Analysts see gasoline prices falling in upcoming weeks

    By NELSON ANTOSH
    Copyright 2004 Houston Chronicle


    You've probably already seen it happening here and there around Houston -- gasoline station operators lowering the prices on their pumps.

    Better yet, more price cuts could be coming.

    A downward trend is expected in the next several weeks in reaction to a near freefall in wholesale gasoline prices Wednesday and Thursday, during which prices fell by nearly 12 cents a gallon.

    Some industry observers say drivers could soon begin to see prices at the pump in the low $1.80s.

    In a relatively short period, gasoline inventory levels have expanded during a time when they normally fall, and crude oil stockpiles grew to the highest level since August 2002, as a flood of imported crude hit the ports.

    In addition, the decision Thursday by the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries to boost output quotas by 2 million barrels per day, the largest increase in six years, promises longer-term relief.

    "This is the reprieve we've been looking for," said Tom Kloza, chief oil analyst for the Oil Price Information Service. "I've said all along that gasoline will be lower on the Fourth of July than Memorial Day weekend. But don't use it as rationale to go out and get that Hummer."

    If OPEC increases output by2 million barrels per day, it could take 35 cents a gallon off the price of gasoline, said Mark Baxter, director of the Maguire Energy Institute at the Southern Methodist University Cox School of Business in Dallas.

    AAA Texas says pump prices have started to fall after four consecutive weeks of record increases. Corpus Christi went down the most last week, by 4.9 cents. Houston was off a penny.

    Even with the relief, prices at the pump remain high compared with this time last year. The Texas average price for a gallon of regular was $1.38 last year, compared with $1.92 now, according to AAA Texas.

    The spot market price for gasoline has gone down even faster than futures prices on the New York Mercantile Exchange. The New York harbor spot price dropped 6 cents a gallon Thursday as ships waited to unload imported gasoline, and San Francisco was down 10 cents, according to Citigroup Global Markets analyst Kyle Cooper.

    Cooper thinks the wholesale price could lose another 20 cents, but it might be the end of summer before that happens.

    These kinds of spot prices make possible $1.75 gasoline at certain locations in Houston, where the operators are typically price cutters, Kloza speculates.

    National sources said pump prices could slip by as much as 10 cents a gallon by July.

    The federal Energy Information Administration said Thursday that the average spot market price has fallen 16 cents a gallon since May 19. It takes one or two weeks for spot prices to be reflected at retail, the agency said.

    The agency added that last week's retail price slippage could be the light at the end of the tunnel.

    "While it is difficult to know what will happen in the near future in light of recent events in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the Middle East, several key indicators suggest that gasoline prices may continue to fall in coming weeks," it said in a weekly report.

    But don't expect pump prices to return to what they were at the start of this year anytime soon, the agency warned.

    Whether OPEC will actually pump more or is just adjusting quotas to cover what it is already pumping was unclear.

    "I think the European traders, and some Americans, have had difficulty with this," Baxter said.

    Crude oil imports last week hit the second-highest level on record, according to the Energy Information Administration.

    OPEC members are more concerned about high prices choking off economic activity than they are about quotas, according to John Kingston, the global director of oil for Platts, an energy industry publication.

    Platts reporters in Beirut, Lebanon, where the OPEC meeting was held, said there was a tacit agreement among the cartel members that those who can put more oil on the market will do so. Sources said Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates will together add 1.1 million barrels during June.

    "That's additional oil. This is real," said Kingston.

    In trading Thursday in New York, crude oil futures for July delivery fell 68 cents to $39.28 a barrel, falling more than $3 from Tuesday's record high of $42.33 a barrel.

    Gasoline futures for the same month fell 4.69 cents to $1.2354 a gallon. Heating oil futures fell 1.62 cents to 99.53 cents a gallon. Natural gas futures fell 15.6 cents to close at $6.363 per thousand cubic feet.

    On London's International Petroleum Exchange, July Brent blend crude futures settled down 46 cents at $36.40 a barrel.


    Dow Jones News Service contributed to this story.
     
  2. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    Thinking of those I know who don't like Bush very much...and thinking they're probably just as happy as I am that their gas prices are going down!!!
     
  3. Faos

    Faos Member

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    And the news just keeps getting worse:

    Jobs growth unexpectedly strong in May

    From wire reports

    WASHINGTON — Businesses added an unexpectedly large 248,000 jobs in May, according to a government report Friday that confirmed a strengthening economy that's likely to bring higher interest rates soon.
    The May figure exceeded analysts' expectations for 216,000 new jobs and followed an upwardly revised 346,000 jobs added in April and 353,000 in March.

    But because tens of thousands of unemployed workers are renewing their search for work as the labor market improves, the overall, seasonally adjusted civilian unemployment rate did not improve from April's 5.6%.

    The 947,000 jobs created in the March-May period made it the strongest for any three months in four years.

    The cascading evidence of accelerating economic activity is certain to reinforce expectations that Federal Reserve policymakers will ratchet U.S. interest rates up from current 46-year lows when they meet June 29-30.

    Virtually every major sector of the economy added jobs in May, from retailing to construction. Particularly notable were 32,000 hires in manufacturing — a fourth monthly increase and biggest for any month since August 1998, when 143,000 manufacturing jobs were created, the department said.

    Construction employment rose 32,000 in May, with 91,000 jobs added since January. In services, professional and business services added 64,000 new jobs, fueled by hiring increases in temporary employment firms. Hiring at such firms has grown by 14% since April 2003.

    Hotels and restaurants added 33,000 jobs over the month, and financial services boosted payrolls by 15,000.

    But some industries lost jobs, including telecommunications, which shed 5,000 last month. Also, there were fewer government jobs last month, as employment in that sector decreased by 27,000.

    Nearly 1.2 million jobs have been added since the start of the year, adding fodder for a campaigning President Bush to blunt Democratic criticisms fueled by the slow recovery from the 2001 recession.

    Still, the economy is far from the booming 1990s. Last month, 8.2 million people remained unemployed. While the overall jobless rate stayed at 5.6%, it was higher among blacks, at 9.9% and Hispanics, at 7%.

    The average duration of unemployment rose to 20 weeks last month, from 19.7 weeks in April. Almost 22% of all jobless workers have been without work for 27 weeks or more.
     
  4. mc mark

    mc mark Member

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    Faos why do you hate america so much? Both your posts claim that this is all bad news?

    What's up with that?

    and re oil prices; I guess Bandar Bush's promise came through huh?

    ;)
     
  5. Mulder

    Mulder Member

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    So the price will only be 50 cents a gallon higher than last summer?
    Happy, Happy
    Joy, Joy
     
  6. gifford1967

    gifford1967 Member
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    I don't mind lower energy prices. I am extremely concerned with Saudia Arabia manipulating oil prices to influence a U.S. election.

    From www.billmon.org


    According to Prince Bandar, the Saudis hoped to fine-tune oil prices over 10 months to prime the economy for 2004. What was key, Bandar knew, was the economic conditions before a presidential election, not at the moment of the election.
    Bob Woodward
    Plan of Attack
    April 2004

    “They’re [oil prices] high. And they could go down very quickly. That's the Saudi pledge. Certainly over the summer, or as we get closer to the election, they could increase production several million barrels a day and the price would drop significantly.”
    Bob Woodward
    60 Minutes interview
    April 18, 2004

    "The allegation that the kingdom is manipulating the price of oil for political purposes or to affect elections is erroneous and has no basis in fact."
    Saudi foreign affairs adviser Adel al-Jubeir
    Press statement
    April 19, 2004

    “I don't say there's a secret deal or any collaboration on this. What I say in the book is that the Saudis . . . hoped to keep oil prices low during the period before the election, because of its impact on the economy. That's what I say.”
    Bob Woodward
    Larry King Show interview
    April 19, 2004

    BANDAR: I don't understand; what's so wrong with oil prices going low? I thought that is good for America, American economy, for the American people, and it's definitely good for us and my country.
    MR. RUSSERT: It may be good for George Bush's re-election.

    BANDAR: It may be good for anybody in the White House and the American people. And we don't see the difference.

    Prince Bandar bin Sultan
    Meet the Press interview
    April 25, 2004

    It will be most interesting if all of a sudden oil prices do go down and gasoline prices at the pump are much less as we get into the fall election campaign.
    Bob Woodward
    Meet the Press interview
    April 25, 2004

    Saudi Arabia's oil minister urged OPEC on Monday to raise its production ceiling by 1.5 million barrels a day when it meets on June 3 … The change came only weeks after Saudi Arabia denied a report that its government agreed with the White House to increase oil production to drive down U.S. gasoline prices in advance of the Nov. 2 election.
    Associated Press
    Saudi Arabia urges OPEC to increase oil production
    May 10, 2004

    "Saudi Arabia will encourage OPEC to increase its production ceiling by more than 2 million barrels per day. We have determined, after reviewing updated projections for oil supply and demand, that this increase in oil production is necessary to maintain stability in the market and growth in the world economy."
    Prince Bandar bin Sultan
    Press Release
    May 21, 2004

    OPEC ministers failed to support a proposal by Saudi Arabia on raising oil output to reduce surging prices, with the cartel putting off a decision until its next official meeting in June … Some countries even appeared annoyed at the fait acompli put to them by Saudi Arabia, which is the cartel's most influential member, with Venezuelan Energy Minister Rafael Ramirez terming the proposal a "unilateral position."
    Agency France-Presse
    No immediate OPEC support for Saudi oil output hike plan
    May 23, 2004

    As crude prices fluctuate around $40 per barrel, [Saudi] officials are weighing options to increase Saudi Arabia’s capacity above its current level of 10.5 million barrels a day. The options include raising production at the kingdom’s existing oil fields and tapping as many as four new ones, the executives said.
    Associated Press
    Saudis debate boosting crude oil output capacity
    May 28, 2004

    Several OPEC members expressed support yesterday for a Saudi plan to raise the group's oil production ceiling by 10.6 percent in the hope of calming jittery markets and reducing crude prices from near record heights. Oil prices sank more than 5 percent in trading in New York and London.
    Associated Press
    Oil prices sink as OPEC talks of higher output
    June 3, 2004

    "Once traders realize there is plenty of oil ... we believe market sentiment will begin to change and we will see it (the price of oil) trending downwards."
    Saudi foreign affairs adviser Adel al-Jubeir
    CNN Interview
    June 3, 2004

    Bush administration officials, who have grown increasingly anxious in recent weeks about the political and economic fallout from high gas prices, voiced satisfaction that yesterday's news might signal some relief for motorists in months ahead. "OPEC's announcement today, coupled with recent inventory and import data, should be viewed as positive developments for the oil markets," Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham said in a written statement.
    Washington Post
    Oil-Price Pressure Eases
    June 4, 2004

    Posted by billmon at 12:12 AM | Comments
     
  7. Lil Pun

    Lil Pun Member

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    Gas is still too damn high and in my state (Arkansas) I have yet to see this economic/job growth.
     
  8. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    If Forbes Kerry had his way, the price of gas would also have an additional $0.50/gallon tax on top of it. He would also work to end domestic oil and gas production and close refineries. I conservatively estimate that the price of gas under a Forbes Kerry regime would be $3.00/gallon. This approaches socialist Europe levels.

    Well then you should have been concerned a long long time ago. Election year production increases by the Saudis are commonplace and have been for decades.
     
  9. mc mark

    mc mark Member

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    Link to verifiable conformation please?
     
  10. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    Please go examine Forbes Kerry's radical environmental record. Report back to me when finished.
     
  11. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

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    examined, and no evidence of a desire to end U.S. oil production found. Now how about answering the question?
     
  12. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Member

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    Lower energy prices + ROBUST job growth = GOOD NEWS FOR AMERICANS. Bush is righting the ship.
     
  13. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    insert Arkansas joke here :D
     
  14. gifford1967

    gifford1967 Member
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    Trader you make it so easy.


    Cheney Tax Plan From '86 Would Have Raised Gas Prices
    By RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr.

    Published: April 6, 2004

    WASHINGTON, April 5 — In October 1986, when Dick Cheney was the lone congressman from energy-rich Wyoming, he introduced legislation to create a new import tax that would have caused the price of oil, and ultimately the price of gasoline paid by drivers, to soar by billions of dollars per year.

    "Let us rid ourselves of the fiction that low oil prices are somehow good for the United States," Mr. Cheney, who is now vice president, said shortly after introducing the legislation.



    Please give us the details on the Saudis past interference with U.S. elections and to what effect.
     
    #14 gifford1967, Jun 4, 2004
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2004
  15. mc mark

    mc mark Member

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    Making the United States a Safer, Cleaner and Stronger Nation

    Creates 500,000 New Jobs Over the Next Decade and Provides Assistance to Assure American Industries Will Lead the New Energy Economy.

    John Kerry has outlined an energy plan that will reduce our dependence on Mideast oil, assure that American industries and ingenuity will lead the new energy economy, and protect our environment. Americans spend more than $20 billion each year on oil from the Persian Gulf -- often from nations that are unstable and hostile to our interests and our values. Kerry believes that we must end this dangerous dependence because it leaves American security and the American economy vulnerable. Kerry’s plan will reduce oil dependence by two million barrels of oil a day, as much as we currently import from the Middle East.

    Priorities

    A New ‘Energy Security and Conservation Trust’

    Reducing our dependence on oil and building a future of clean and abundant energy are urgent national priorities. John Kerry will create an Energy Security and Conservation Trust Fund capitalized by existing oil and gas royalty revenues and dedicated to accelerating the commercialization of technologies -- such as the manufacture of more efficient cars and trucks, the development of biofuels, and the creation of a hydrogen-based energy economy -- that will reduce America’s dangerous dependence on oil.

    Reducing Oil Dependence by Two Million Barrels of Oil a Day

    Americans should drive the cars, SUVs, minivans and trucks of their choice, but that these vehicles can be safer, more efficient and affordable. Kerry believes that we should increase our fuel economy standards to 36 miles per gallon by 2015 and will also provide tax incentives for consumers to buy the vehicles they want and incentives for manufacturers to convert factories to build the more efficient vehicles of the future. Taken together these proposals will enhance national security, strengthen the American auto industry, and protect and create jobs.

    A Plan to Use Hydrogen Throughout the Nation By 2020

    While John Kerry believes our nation needs a strategy to reduce dependence on oil today, he knows we can harness technological innovation and ingenuity to develop a hydrogen-based economy for the future. Hydrogen has great promise as a clean, domestic, and reliable energy source for the future. It has the potential to power our cars at 100 miles per gallon without pollution and, with the right technology, can be produced efficiently from natural gas and coal. Eventually, John Kerry believes that we can build a truly clean and secure economy based on hydrogen -- a clean fuel that we can eventually get entirely from renewable sources from our farms, the wind, solar energy, hydropower and geothermal sources.

    Making Our Homes, Offices, Schools, and Cities More Energy Efficient

    The American economy is twice as efficient today as it was some 30 years ago. In part, that’s because we accomplish more with less through efficient technologies. But studies by the Department of Energy and other agencies show that we can save significantly more energy through advances in energy efficient technologies – heating, lighting and manufacturing – that only need to be implemented. John Kerry believes that the government should promote the efficient use of energy in the places that we work and live. Kerry will cut the Government’s energy bill 20 percent by 2020 – saving the Federal government $8 billion over the next ten years - and will challenge municipalities, corporations, universities, small businesses, and hospitals to do the same. He will also provide tax credits for energy-efficient buildings and homes.

    Assuring 20 Percent of Electricity Comes From Renewable Sources by 2020

    John Kerry believes that America needs a national market for electricity produced from renewable energy, such as wind, solar, biomass, geothermal and hydrogen. Kerry supports a national goal of producing 20 percent of our electricity from renewable sources by 2020. This standard will encourage the market to respond by finding the most efficient and effective way of meeting that goal through a credit trading system.

    A New North American Energy Partnership to Expand the Supply of Natural Gas

    Natural gas, the cleanest form of fossil fuel, has historically been in abundant supply at a reasonable cost. However, many fear that supply shortages may cause persistently high prices over the next several years. High prices for this fuel hurt lower and middle class families since heat and power are essential services. American families will bear the cost of increased prices for electricity and heating and for goods produced using natural gas. Natural gas, for example, is used in producing fertilizer and other products and as a fuel for industrial processes and producing electricity. These higher costs will hinder economic recovery. John Kerry believes it is imperative that we begin to address not only the supply and demand sides of the equation, but the short-term and long-term challenges for natural gas as well.

    Assuring a Fair Marketplace

    Providing Effective Market Monitoring and Enforcement. While much of the expected pressure on the natural gas market is due to supply shortages, there have been abuses in the market for natural gas – such as alleged manipulation of capacity in the western markets, inaccurate filing of trade data – that ultimately have an adverse effect on the prices consumers pay. John Kerry will make sure that any abuses are dealt with effectively and prevented from reoccurring. This will require the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission to be more diligent and aggressive in pursuing anti-competitiveness practices.

    Pursuing Opportunities to Tap Natural Gas in Environmentally Safe Ways

    North American Energy Initiative. John Kerry believes that the United States should reach out and develop a long-term partnership with our immediate neighbors and friends Canada and Mexico to develop and expand North America's robust energy supplies. By looking beyond our borders, as well as to our nation's huge stranded gas supplies on the North Slope of Alaska, we have the potential to secure long-term energy supplies that help meet our demand for energy. For example, Canada has huge stranded natural gas capacity that has no way to reach major markets, and Mexico likewise lacks an adequate energy infrastructure to allow it to tie into major North American energy markets. Presidential leadership must be interjected into this equation, and John Kerry would make this a priority issue with our North American neighbors.

    Developing Alaska Natural Gas Pipeline. There are 35 trillion cubic feet of known natural gas reserves on the North Slope of Alaska that have no way to get to markets in the lower 48 states. John Kerry believes that we must build the Alaska pipeline to expand natural gas as a resource and provide important jobs for American workers. As President, John Kerry would bring together the States, Native Americans, producers, pipeline companies, Canada and other interested parties to make this a domestic priority, including providing appropriate regulatory streamlining to get this project built.

    Encouraging Development in the Gulf of Mexico. John Kerry supports developing natural gas sources in the Gulf of Mexico on areas already open for drilling. He supports temporary incentives that encourage development in this area.

    Assuring Natural Gas Can Be Delivered – Safely and Reliably
    Enhancing Infrastructure to Help Supply Natural Gas More Effectively. We need a domestic pipeline infrastructure that is capable of delivering natural gas where it is needed, when it is needed, in a safe and reliable manner. For example, the lack of pipeline infrastructure may be impeding development of natural gas on public and private lands on the eastern front of the Rocky Mountains, which are believed to hold very significant reserves of natural gas. Over 60 percent of the natural gas reserves in this region are available for lease under standard lease terms, according to a recent government report. John Kerry’s plan would ensure that we develop needed pipeline infrastructure and supplies in appropriate areas in an environmentally sound and safe manner.

    Improving Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) Transportation Systems. There are ways in which we can improve our ability to import natural gas from reliable foreign sources. The current infrastructure for importing natural gas from overseas is limited as the natural gas must be liquefied at super cold temperatures for shipping overseas and returned to gas form before it can be put in the domestic pipeline system. There are currently only four terminals in the U.S. where liquefied natural gas is delivered and these facilities often raise challenging local issues. John Kerry would support new technologies under development to address some of the local concerns about this transportation system, including development of ship-based regasification systems that would allow the LNG to be regasified offshore and moved to shore by connecting to underwater pipelines.

    Increase the Efficiency of Natural Gas Use. Advanced technologies, commercially available today, can dramatically increase the efficiency of natural gas use for power generation and end use applications, including heating and cooling. For example, combined heat and power systems which provide both electric and thermal energy to commercial and industrial users can achieve efficiencies greater than 70%, compared with power plants that operate often at half that level. And gas-fired appliances available today can substantially cut homeowners natural gas bills which may hit record levels this winter.


    Redirecting Unwarranted Subsidies to Invest in the Energy Technologies of the Future

    John Kerry’s plan does not necessarily spend more than the Republican energy bill, he just has different priorities. While John Kerry wants to invest in renewable energy that can reduce our dependence on foreign oil, the Republican bills advocate big subsidies for large, well-financed energy companies. The House Republican energy bill authorizes billions in new spending and tax cuts for the industry. The Senate bill also has subsidies for the industry. John Kerry believes we need an energy policy that puts federal resources into creating the technologies that will create energy security, create jobs and protect the environment.
    At the same time, John Kerry believes that the nation can save money through targeted policies to improve the management of energy and public resources. For example, we can modernize the sale of mineral rights on public land by ending the sale of public land rights at $5 per acre and save $519 million over five years. John Kerry’s plan to cut electricity in the Federal government would save $8 billion over the next ten years. And John Kerry would close a loophole that allows small-business owners to deduct $100,000 for luxury sport-utility vehicles through a law meant to benefit farmers and others from being penalized by the luxury tax when they purchase pickup trucks and tractors.


    Making Coal Part of the 21st Century Energy Solution

    For too long there has been a deadlock between those who support using coal and those who support improving the environment. George Bush tells coal producing regions to fight environmental protections because they will hurt the industry. Others believe there is no future for coal. The reality, however, is that coal is an abundant domestic fuel that is used to produce more than one-half of our electric power. John Kerry believes that coal should be part of the solution to our energy and environmental challenges and that we need to forge a new way to harness technology to develop and deploy clean electric power from coal. At the same time, John Kerry believes that we need clear benchmarks and a flexible framework by which to measure the emissions performance of existing and new uses of coal.
    Making Coal Part of the Clean Energy Solution and Strengthen the Economy in States and Regions Engaged in Coal Production and Use. John Kerry believes that we need leadership to lower the four leading power plant emissions – nitrogen oxide, sulfur dioxide, mercury, and carbon dioxide. He also is committed to helping the coal industry and the communities that support it be part of America’s energy future. He wants to make the coal industry part of the effort in developing and implementing new cleaner coal technology. John Kerry believes we must invest $10 billion over the next decade – a five-fold increase – to help transition from the current generation of older and dirtier coal plants to cleaner and more advanced coal-fired power plants Kerry believes we must also invest in new research that can make sure clean coal is a major contributor in meeting future energy needs, including playing an important part in the production of hydrogen. This approach will be good for the environment and public health and will assure coal workers and their families are an important part of the next generation of energy technology for our nation.

    ----------------------------
    No where does it say he would work to end domestic oil and gas production and close refineries.


    Again I ask. A link please to verify your assumption.
     
  16. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    Wow, so now the liberals are offering the following as part of their defense:

    1) A brief, cursory examination of Forbes Kerry's records in which they purposefully ignore his radical stances on virtually every air, water and land issue.

    2) an ancient policy proposal that is a far cry from the politician's current stance, as documented by a left-wing NY Times writer

    3) A question that indicates the liberal poster has not listened to a word the Saudi foreign minister has uttered.

    Nice try liberals, but this is just unacceptable. To expect me to rebut this type of superficial trash is ridiculous.
     
  17. mc mark

    mc mark Member

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    That's what I thought!

    Have a nice day friend.
     
  18. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

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    SILENCED
     
  19. Dubious

    Dubious Member

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    Really a well trained monkey should be able to defeat GWB this fall, however, JFK2 falls somewhat short of that.

    TJ you make a oil import fee sound like a bad liberal idea but it made sense back in 1980 when Ross Perot suggested it and it makes sense now. An oil import fee would promote domestic production, promote conservation, promote innovation in alternative fuels, spread revenue enhancement over a large segment of the population to reduce the deficit accrued by the no-tax and spend policies of this republican administration.

    The government must get it's monies from somewhere. And, we have always used the tax code for social engineering. If we had bitten the bullet in the '80s and taxed imported oil we might all be driving efficient hybrid cars by now instead of allowing the Saudi/Detroit lobby to trick us into 15 MGG gas guzzlers when we rationally knew gasoline would become increasingly scarce. Hell, Jimmy Carter flat out told us it would happen.
     
  20. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    You are correct...and a wise conservative.
     

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