Two young, talented, high scoring big men who have had their troubles in the past: who is better? I'll have to admit, I haven't seen a lot of either of them, but they strike me as comparable players. If you're going to answer that question, you might as well pick between these three older, underachieving PF's of the same ilk too - Derek Coleman, Shawn Kemp, and Vin Baker: who is better, who would you rather have on your team? These guys all seem so comparable, I'd be interested to see how you guys would choose between them. ------------------
Both Mo and Antonie are Headcases, Mo due to him playing at the Clippers and not being able to handle losing and taking it upon himself to lift them out of losing and carry them to wins. Whereas Walker is a Black hole, someone who thinks they can do i all by themselves. I still think Mo has the ability to wreck the chemistry this team has built up, but i would still pick him over Walker. As for the veteran pick, Baker is a softy in a fattybombaladda of a body, I would be tempted to take Coleman on the basis of his basketball performance last year, but somehow he will find a way to wreck everthing off the court, as for Kemp, he probably is the best talent on and off the court if he could drop down from the super heavy weight sumo wrestling class. Smeg ------------------ Discombobulation Imminent
Oatdog: None of the older power forwards that you have mentioned are underachievers. Each one of them has their time in the spotlight and are still very good. At one point in his career, Derrick Coleman averaged 20ppg and 11rpg. Though he doesnt average quite that much anymore, he still averaged around 17ppg and 8.5rpg in a very deep position that only allows him to play 30mpg. As far as Baker is concerned, he was one of the better power forwards in the league unitl he gained like 50 pounds. After making the Olympics squad and shedding a lot of weight, he will be a much better player. Shawn Kemp has been a lardball for quite a while. Before that though, he was a really awesome power forward who matched up really good against Karl Malone. Though I like both Maurice Taylor and Antoine Walker I would have to go with Antonio McDyess because he is a really good rebounder as well as a shot blocker. But, if I had to choose between Walker and Taylor it would be really tough. Walker is a clutch player, but I dont think he would fit in well with our team. Maurice Taylor fits in perfectly with what we have because he has a better shot and is more athletic, making a perfect fit.
Mo and Antone very similar, but I always thought Mo passed more and made better decisions. Kemp is still the best of those three. ------------------ "You've got 6 fouls, use them well" -Derrick Coleman
DaneB - Whenever you have to use words like "at one point in his career," "until he gained 50 pounds," and "Before that though" you're talking about underacheiving or failure of some kind. You're making excuses for them. Now granted, I kind of consider DC to be an overacheiver of sorts. (how does somebody that everybody hates and is an obvious cancer on a team get those kind of numbers I'll never know) But clearly, if his attitude were better he could have been an All-Star in his prime. As for Shawn Kemp, there's no reason he shouldn't be an All-Star today. He obviously doesn't give a rat's @$$ about the game of basketball, or he'd lose some weight and stop talking about money. As for Vin Baker, he's an enigma. Cause he's actually a pretty nice guy. He just has a big problem with his confidence for some reason. Doesn't handle pressure well. And somehow, that's translated to poor health, and a significant decline is his career. Personally, if money weren't an issue, I'd probably take Kemp purely from a numbers and history standpoint. His numbers are a little better than the other two, and he was better in his prime than the other two were in theirs. Also, in response to the original question, I would take Mo, simply because of Antoine's seeming inability to understand the team concept. No way that guy would fly in Rudyball. ------------------ "There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, and STATISTICS..." - Mark Twain -
Now maybe I only think this because I don't favor either the Rockets or Celtics, but I'd take Walker. He's got better range, he's a better ball-handler, and he's a better rebounder. It's easy to say that he tries to do too much, but considering the Celtics personnel I don't think he really has much of a choice. Give the guy an imposing low-post presence to play with, and I think he would really shine. Evidentally Jerry West was trying to get him before he retired - nevermind it had a snowball's chance in hell of happening - but still, if Walker played for the Lakers where he could freelance more - rebound, handle the ball, bury the 3, start the fastbreak, etc. all from the PF position, they would be pretty damn near unstoppable. ------------------
DaneB, Despite impressive numbers through large parts of their careers, I tagged those PF's as underachieving due to their seeming lack of dedication to the game. DC, in particular, has as much talent as any player I've seen, esp. at his position. Though he's put up some good numbers, I can easily say he's an underachiever because of the true measure of a great player: how he plays in big games. The fact is he hasn't played poorly or well in big games - he hasn't played in ANY big games! When this guy was the first overall pick ten odd years ago, one would think that at some time in his career, DC would be a factor in the playoffs, but the guy has not put it together well enough with a team to even have the opportunity to shine in a clutch moment. That just shows a lack of dedication and competitive zeal to me. Of all the high-priced big guys that were on the block this year, Walker peaked my interest the most because of his age and offensive production. Now we have Mo coming to the Rockets hopefully bringing what I was looking for in Walker. The only advantage to date I see Mo having aside from salary is his low post game which helps him have a better FG%. Walker's FG% is rather Kennyesque, but he still rebounds like a big man should. I really hope Mo can pick it up in this area. Most of all, I hope Mo doesn't get a fat paycheck and end up fat and out of shape like Coleman, Kemp, or Baker - that was the future I had him tagged for before the Rockets signed him. Also, apologies for misspelling Antoine. I'd correct it if I knew how. [This message has been edited by Oatdog (edited September 19, 2000).]
I'd take Mo Taylor over Antoinne Walker mainly becuz Walker is a black hole on offense. Taylor is also bigger than Walker isnt he? I'm not sure about this, but I thought Taylor was bigger... that means he prolly has a better post game and can bang(if he tries) with the other tough pf's of the west. ------------------ president of the dan langhi fan club.
Interesting topic. Both Taylor and Walker are headcases, so their mental game is pretty even. They are both good ballhandlers, good outside shooters, incredible athletes (for their size), versatile, and very weak defenders. Walker rebounds better, but the thing that puts Taylor ahead of Walker (IMO) is his passing. Once you get the ball in to Walker, it's not coming back out, while Taylor is an above average passer. I'd rather not waste my time with either of them, but if I had to pick from the two, I'd take Taylor because of his passing. ------------------ Mo money, Mo problems...
Walker is a bit of a tweener at 6'8.. he doesn't really play any form of defense. Mind you neither does Mo. It'd be an interesting choice, but I'm a BIG fan of a full sized PF so I'd go for Mo! As for the vets; I'd go for Baker. Coleman performed WORSE last year than he has over his career 16.7ppg and 8.5 rpg as compared to 18.5ppg and 10 rpg. Baker will probably be back to some good form this year. The olympics will do his confidence the world of good (darnit!). ------------------
I'll take Taylor out of blind faith. However, if I were playing the Playstation (NBA LIVE), there is no substitute for Cyber-toine! ------------------ Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait, not me...you.
If you look at the stats from their first three years in the league and compare them you get this: <CENTER><TABLE BORDER ALIGN="center" ><TR><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"></DIV></TD><TD><P ALIGN=Center>GM</TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>MIN</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>FG%</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3P%</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>FT%</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>RPG</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>APG</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>SPG</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>BPG</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>TPG</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>PPG</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR><TR><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Taylor</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD><P ALIGN=Center>179</TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>29.30</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>.466</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD VALIGN="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>.133</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>.716</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>5.24</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>1.23</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.56</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.65</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.21</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>14.79</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR><TR><TD VALIGN="Middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Walker</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD><P ALIGN=Center>206</TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>37.80</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>.422</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>.332</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>.623</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>9.40</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER><P ALIGN=Center>3.23</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>1.50</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.68</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3.11</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>19.70</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></CENTER> --------------------- But, since they didn't play the same number of minutes, it's hard to compare the numbers. So, we'll set them to 48 min. stats. Like So: <CENTER><TABLE BORDER ALIGN="center"><TR><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"> </DIV></TD><TD><P ALIGN=Center>GM</TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>MIN</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>FG%</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3P%</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>FT%</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>RPG</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>APG</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>SPG</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>BPG</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>TPG</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>PPG</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR><TR><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Taylor</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD><P ALIGN=Center>179</TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>48.00</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>.466</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD VALIGN="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>.133</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>.716</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>8.58</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>2.02</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.92</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>1.07</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3.62</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>24.23</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR><TR><TD VALIGN="Middle"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>Walker</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD><P ALIGN=Center>206</TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>48.00</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>.422</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>.332</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>.623</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>11.93</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER><P ALIGN=Center>4.10</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>1.91</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>0.87</CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>3.95<CENTER></DIV></TD><TD valign="top"><DIV align="center"><CENTER>25.02</CENTER></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></CENTER> From this we can see how they match up a little better. Taylor has better numbers in: blocks, turnovers, field goal %, and free throw %. They're pretty close as far as scoring goes, less than .80 points seperate them. Walker, however, gets more: rebounds, assists, and steals. I also think Walker has a slight edge in the head-case department (in a negative sense). Also, I don't want my PF shooting 42.2% to score 20 ppg. It just means he's taking shots away from other people. Plus, if he gets fouled, he needs to make more than 62.3% of the freebies It's a lot closer than I first thought. At first, I thought, "Hell, Taylor in a landslide." But, after looking over the numbers, Walker has produced very well. So, taking into account that I think Taylor has his head screwed on a little better and shoots better, and that he has improved in just about every statistical category every year he's been in the league, I'd have to go with him. ------------------ I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem. DREAMer's Rocket Page [This message has been edited by DREAMer (edited September 20, 2000).]
I'd take Maurice anyday over Taylor. Like Cabby said, once Walker gets the ball u can pretty much forget about getting it back. Also Maurice is a little less inclined to jack up shots when they are not available. Also I would want my 4 to shoot better than 42 freakin percent. Walkers wussy ass is much more happy to jack up threes than go inside to mix it up with the big boys. ------------------ Fun Police Says: 1. Stupid threads & Stupid BBS names are not FUN! 2. Spelling, grammar, punctuation and sentence structure are not FUN! 3. Conduct yourself in a FUN way! The Fun Police are Watching. Vote for the Rockets & Have FUN! REDSKINS ARE DALLAS'S b****!!!!!
For all the discussion about Walker's ballhogging, it's surprising to see he gets so many assists. That's not a bad number for a PF. I'm really looking forward to seeing Mo play. I don't think I've caught any Clippers games over the last few years. I just hope he can be that 18-8 guy other teams have to prepare to stop along with Cat and Franchise. ------------------
Yeah I'd take Maurice over Taylor anyday. Maurice averaged 17.1 PPG last season, Taylor only managed to pull down 6.5 RPG!!! ------------------ Miggidy Markell says: 1. Eastcoast is da sh*t 2. Rockets rule 3. Hip/Hop is dope 4. Buy the new Ruff Ryders album! Miggidy Markell is watching Stay STRAPPED & WATCH ya back or be Assimilated.
And I like my PFs to shoot better than 40%. -KTSNBS ------------------ The Serious Police are watching. Follow the rules or be assimilated. Shandon is underrated.
Well, today I get to see who really is better. From what I've seen of Walker on League Pass this year, he doesn't seem incredibly impressive. If Mo would just get a little physical for once, he could take a step toward being regarded as the upper echelon PF he wants to be in showing up a guy who many regard as the best PF in the East and who is making well beyond the max. I'm looking forward to seeing how this match up turns out. Only problem is the Rockets may just milk that Francis-Herren matchup all game preventing Mo from getting any touches. Also, I might as well reflect on that other comparison between Kemp, Coleman, and Baker. What the heck has happened to these guys? Man, these guys' seasons have started off as real disasters. I'm especially surprised about Baker, since word was he was in shape and had regained his old form. 7.5RPG and 13PPG on 41% shooting - could be one of the reasons his team has started so poorly. [This message has been edited by Oatdog (edited November 22, 2000).]
Dead even somewhat? But MO handles the ball better and better passer. ------------------ Rudy T. will find and fulfill Rockets destiny.
