Mississippi sucks!!!!!

::grumblegrumble::

damn yankee. go home. or stay home if you're up "there" already.


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"I have no regrets except that I wasn't up to keep Randy from getting on that plane."
--Ozzy Osbourne on guitarist Randy Rhodes

 

For what its worth, I was kidding with my Yankee comments. (I should have added a )I respect your opinions, and mine do differ from your on this debate.

And just for anyone who wasn't around for the South Carolina flag debate: I'm not one of those Jerry Springer pieces of racist white trash.

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"I have no regrets except that I wasn't up to keep Randy from getting on that plane."
--Ozzy Osbourne on guitarist Randy Rhodes

 

This flag thing is really ridiculous. There is absolutely no reason to keep the flag they have. I was reading an article where they interviewed a farmer and he says (paraphrasing): "Ive had equipment on my farm for 20 years and it still works well. Why should we change the flag?"

Im sorry if Im steretyping, but is everybody in Mississippi that dumb. Ive also heard the argument to keep the confederate flag emblem as it is tradition and links the people to their ancestors. Hello, your ancestors were racist slave holders. That is nothing to be proud of. Call me liberal, but I am embarrased to have Mississippi as part of the U.S.A. right now.

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Haha.. you fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is: Never get involved in a land war in Asia. Only slightly less well know is this: Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!

[This message has been edited by JayZ750 (edited April 19, 2001).]

 

Well hell. I guess I'm getting myself up to diving into this one again.

Just let me say this: Slavery existed for over 200 years under the Stars and Stripes, and only existed for 3 years under the Stars and Bars.

I am proud of that flag, and certainly not because of slavery. I lost many ancestors on both sides of that war. Of those who died for the South, none of them were slave-owners. They were all poor share-croppers who died to defend their home. All of this is documented in my family history, so IMO, the slavery argument holds no relevance for me.

I got flamed for this is the SC flag debate, and I expect it again, but I'll still defend my beliefs is this. I even had some support the first time around.

Achebe....calling Achebe....come argue with me!

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"I have no regrets except that I wasn't up to keep Randy from getting on that plane."
--Ozzy Osbourne on guitarist Randy Rhodes

 

Here is the infamous South Carolina Flag Debate

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"I have no regrets except that I wasn't up to keep Randy from getting on that plane."
--Ozzy Osbourne on guitarist Randy Rhodes

 

I am really torn on this argument....

Lynus makes a good case for all the Southerners (the majority) who did not own slaves, but would prefer to maintain their history.

On the other hand, the flag does represent more than just the South. It is one of many Battle Flags, and the battle was mainly over slavery (see the old South Carolina ceding <?SP> thread). Mississippi and South Carolina aren't the only states who have aspects of Confederate battle flags in them. I looked it up once, I think even Florida's flag takes much of its design from a Confederate flag. Somebody had a link to a web page discussing the Confederate influence on souther state flags.

I mean, what if the Latino population in Texas decided that they wanted to change the Texas flag because it represented the war between Mexico and Texas? Or if they wanted the Alamo bulldozed?

Also, what about all the war memorials for the Confederate soldiers... should they be torn down as well? I don't think so. They fought admirably for their country, and what percent of them even owned slaves (very low from what I'm told).

I can see how the African American population would not prefer a state flag which involves Confederate influences...... But, my son (God willing I have one) is born, I'll teach him to be proud of his Southern heritage, his Black heritage, his Polish heritage, all of his heritage. I won't hide things like slavery from him, rather try to explain it, and hopefully something like the historical nature of a southern state flag will be very very low on his list of things to be worried about.

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DREAMer's Rocket Page

 

Personally, I think that once you lose the war, you lose the ability to have your flag flown in official ways.

I wouldn't feel comfortable flying the Mexican flag over the Texas Capital Building, nor would I feel particularly comfortable incorporating the Mexican flag into the Texas flag. But that is part of our heritage as Texans.

It's not exactly the same thing, but it's not that much different, either.

In the case of South Carolina and Alabama, the Confederate flag was incorporated specifically to protest integration. It's harder for me to see it as a Southern Heritage argument when the whole reason the flag is being flown (or was added to the state's flag) was based in racism. (Mississippi has had the Confederate flag as part of their state flag for much longer. I am not aware of their speific reasons for adding it).

One other thing, the use of the Confederate Battle Flag seems to cause the most discomfort because the flag has been coopted as a symbol of racist groups such as the KKK and others. If the goal is simply to acknowledge the Confederate period of our history, wouldn't a nice compromise be to simply use a different Confederate flag like Six Flags does?

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Houston Sports Board

 

History etc...All kinds of people wave "their" flag in pride. Lets see, ya got the Mexican flag all over my neighborhood, & on dashboards etc I guess it seems to say, "My past is from Mexico and we still love that culture". What has Mexico done to humanity? (Besides bring in tons of drugs every year across the Rio Grande ... and of course that funny rainbow flag I see all over Montrose saying "I'm gay and see me flame"! When was the last "Straight Bashing" you heard of? The thing is that confederate flag brings a baaad feeling. So what if most people didn't own slaves or whatever. Think about those times the flag represented. Hell, should we wave Nazi flags for a little history?! Anyhow, I see those stickers on the back of beat up suburbans and 4X4s, it simply brings about an ill feeling of intolerance. It seems to say to me "Whites only" in a really dangerous and bad way. Kinda scary. Everyones got their right to their culture, it just matters what that culture is about.

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"Thats, Stirfry, NOT stayfry"

 

I HATE the confederate flag and all it stands for as much for the racial connotations as for the fact it just makes southerners look so damn backwards. That whole image of the big truck with the gun rack and the giant confederate flag makes me cringe and, mind you, I've known some really nice people who fit that stereotype. It's just that the image is so tired and ends up representing the millions of us who are not well-represented by that image.

HOWEVER, Mississippian's voted on the damn thing, so they ought to be able to do what they want as wierd as it may be and as twisted as it may seem to some of us.

BTW: mrpaige, excellent argument as ALWAYS.

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And then, depression set in...

 

From what I heard, most of the population would prefer the flag to be changed. Many of the Mississippi people do not see it as rebal/racist and just reconize it as their flag.

Appearently ol Jessie Jackson went in there throwing a fuss and telling them they WILL change the flag. They did not care to hear some outside come in and tell them how to run their state. How would that make them look if they did as he said?

If he would have just shut his mouth, more people would have voted to have it changed.

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Im too drunk to walk ... Im driving home!

 

The question is. . . are we about Inclusion or Exclusion?
Keeping that flag Excludes a significant population of the state . . . keeps them at arms length. That flag is a reminder of those that died in the middle passage. Those that died in slavery. Those the where beat and torn down by slavery. Those lynched post-slavery. Those that are still discriminated against in that state today.

But hell . . . .If that is something they wanna be proud of . . .so be it?


Rocket River
I am once again enlightened

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And here I thought this topic was about how everyone hated the Mississippi RIVER, you know, cause of all the flooding up here.

I just thought I'd weigh in with my $.02 on this issue. (which, by the way thanks to the market yesterday, actually ended up being more like $.06 - $.08 -- but that's for another thread).

As I recall, during the SC flag debate, they said that the flag itself was put up on the capitol dome in 1962 in defiance of the Kennedy Administration's desire for integration in that state. In that case, I agree with the decision to take it down, because the inspiration for putting it up there in the first place was racially and hatefully motivated.

Now, I'm not sure what the history of the Mississippi flag is, but if it's the same kind of thing as SC, where the design was intended in the first place to inflame or belittle African Americans, then I think it would be insulting not to change the design. However, like I said, I don't know the history of this particular flag, and it looks like a majority of Mississippians (is that right?) want to keep the flag the way it is. And as long as that remains the case, I don't see how it can be changed.

On a related note: Personally, I find it a little sad when symbols, (ie. confederate flag, swastika, etc.) aren't able to be used anymore because of the associations that they have with hateful groups. It kinda makes me feel like when that happens, those hate groups have won -- they've perverted what once was good, and forever given it an evil connotation. Not that I think swastika's or the like should start becomming commonplace, but it just makes me kinda sad, that's all.


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To me, the bottom line is that the Confederate Flag is a symbol of division. The vote was 65% to 35%, and was on racial lines (Mississippi's whites largely voted for it, while the blacks voted against it). I had ancestors who fought and died on both sides of the Civil War, and I respect the historical aspect to the stars and bars. But when it serves to divide a state's citizens along racial lines, and further flies high above the state's capital as a symbol of that division, I say that it does far more harm than good.

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I'm about to boldly go where many men have gone before.

 

I realize there may be some people who want to keep the flag because of its historical value and because their ancestors were nto slave holders, but that doesn't make it any better in my opinion. Imagine if we had a state with a strong German heritage and they had a swastika on the state flag. We would still want that to go down, even if these Germans in particular did not believe in the Supreme Aryian nation. It's not just whether or not they owned any slaves, its whether or not they did anything about those around them who were slave owners. By fighting for the Confederate army, they were, in essence, fighting for slavery. I realize it was a different tme and place and ex-ante the decision might have been hard to make, but there are always difficulties when making a ethical decision. Whatever the purpose of the Confederate emblem, it represents something horrible and shouldnt be flown anymore.

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Haha.. you fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is: Never get involved in a land war in Asia. Only slightly less well know is this: Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!

 

The Confederate flag belongs in a museum.

I don't know about the people who live in Mississippi, but if I were in a group of five people and two of them found my t-shirt offensive, I'd change it.

40 percent of Mississippians find the Confederate battle flag offensive. That's not a majority, but it's enough that the other 60 percent should have the decency to accept change.

And no, I don't universally support that principle. In this specific case, yes.

The real problem I have with this whole issue is that blacks in Mississippi have much, much, much more serious problems facing their community. This is rearranging the ****ing deck chairs on the ****ing Titanic compared to the literacy and incarceration rates of black males in Mississippi. I think the political leadership of the black community is more than a little misguided to focus on such a trivial issue.

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BK: "Hey coach, great season. Thanks!"

Rudy: "Thanks guys, appreciate the support."

This really happened.

 

And can we stop with the goddamned comparisons to the swastika? There's no need to draw an analogy here. The concept of the Confederate battle flag being offensive to people whose ancestors were slaves under it is a vivid and strong enough scenario to stand alone.

Most of us have black friends who find the Confederate flag offensive. We understand (to some degree [added upon reviewing]) their pain and anger at seeing it. A lot of us also have friends who defend the flag. We understand (and probably disagree) with their reasoning for supporting it.

Very few of us have Nazi sympathizers as friends, so we have a hard time imagining what it would be like dealing with someone who supported flying the swastika atop the state capitol.

Making that analogy doesn't help at all. It muddies the water, because in this case the reality is much more accessible than the imaginary scenario.

We don't need to employ the extremely tired device of comparing the opposing view to supporting Nazism to make a compelling argument.

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BK: "Hey coach, great season. Thanks!"

Rudy: "Thanks guys, appreciate the support."

This really happened.

[This message has been edited by BrianKagy (edited April 19, 2001).]

 

Exactly
The Holocaust is consider a sin against nature
while slavery is a everybody has done it thing

Rocket River
But I agree. . the horror of slavery , , the angst against the flag is enough to stand on it's own.

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Actually I think a majority of the black in the state thought it was a waste of money that could be allocated elsewhere but .. . once the motion was started they could not UNSPEND the money

Rocket River

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