Minister beaten after clashing with Muslims on his TV show

Atrocious behavior by the Muslim attackers. Not exactly behaving in a peaceful manner, to say the least.

 

Violence is just a part of their religion. As westerners, we can't understand it.

 

Be careful. Some around here would label you as being a bigot for stating that.

 

It is in the Quran........why would anyone label someone a bigot? It calls for violence....against non-believers.

DD

 

When did you get your degree in Muslim Studies?

 

Sorry, I guess you need a degree to read it. Just for giggles:

Link to discussion about Violence in religion and the Koran


At the beginning of his mission, Muhammad urged his followers to meet opposition with patience and persuasion. Scholars refer to these texts of the Koran as "verses of forgiveness and pardon." For example, the Koran says: "Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His path, and who receive guidance. (16:125)." "Nor can goodness and evil be equal. Repel (evil) with what is better (41:34)."

After consolidating his power, however, Muhammad explicitly ordered the use of offensive warfare against unbelievers. Scholars refer to these texts of the Koran as the "Sword Verses." Here are two examples: "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not (2:216)." "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful (9:5)."

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The author has tried to simplify the subject, but reading Koran verses can be tedious, because the structure of the sentences is archaic, much like KJV. But, it is important to make the effort to understand the development of Muhammad's teachings on warfare, because this helps us understand why Muslims have used in the past and are still using today armed conflicts to advance the cause of Allah throughout the world. The references from the Koran are given as Sura, which means chapter, followed by the number of the verses.

Stage One: No Retaliation

When Muhammad began preaching Islam in 610 A. D. in Mecca, his fellow tribesmen (Koreish) became increasingly hostile toward him because of his condemnation of their idolatry. The chapters (suras) of the Koran which originated during the 13 years Muhammad continued to live in Mecca, contain no instruction about fighting, in spite of the severe persecution suffered by his small band of followers. Why? Simply because his few followers stood no chance to win in a physical conflict. Thus it was a wise survival strategy to avoid violent confrontations. Few verses will serve to illustrate this teaching.

In Sura 73:10,11 Muhammad urges his followers to be patient toward those who deny the truth: "And have patience with what they say, and leave them with noble (dignity). And leave me (alone to deal with) those in possession of the good things of life, who (yet) deny the truth, and bear with them for a little while."

In Sura 52:45,47,48 the prophet admonishes to leave the unbelievers alone and to wait patiently for the Lord to punish them: "So leave them alone until they encounter that day of theirs, wherein they shall (perforce) swoon (with terror) ... And verily, for those who do wrong, there is another punishment besides this... Now await in patience the command of thy Lord, for verily thou art in Our eyes."

Stage Two: Defensive Fighting is Permitted

On July 15, 622, the increasing opposition forced Muhammad and his followers to flee from Mecca to Medina, a distance of 250 miles North. This is an important date, known as the Hegira, because it marks the beginning of the Moslem calendar. In Medina Muhammad was recognized as a prophet and was able to consolidate his power. His followers began looting the Meccan caravans passing through Medina. This practice eventually led to several battles between the Koreish tribes of Mecca and his followers.

Muhammad gained the first victory in the Battle of Badr in 624 with an army of 305, mostly citizens of Medina, over a Koreish force twice as large. He conquered several Jewish and Christian tribes and ordered and watch in person the massacred of 600 Jews in one day. It was at this time that Muhammad instructed his followers to defend themselves by fighting and killing.

An example of this instruction is found in Sura 22:39-41 where permission is given to engage in defensive fighting : "To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged, and verily, God is most powerful for their aid." Again in Sura 22:58 rewards are promised to those who die in jihad: "Those who leave their homes in the cause of God, and are then slain or die, on them will God bestow verily a goodly provision." The promise of paradise to those who die fighting for Allah, has inspired countless Muslin through the centuries to become martyrs for their faith. It is this promise that inspires devout Muslims young men and women today to become suicide bombers for the cause of Allah.

Stage Three: Defensive fighting is Commanded

A few months after granting permission to fight in self-defence, Muhammad instructed his followers in making war as a religious obligation. At first the enemies were the idol worshippers of the Koreish tribe in Mecca, but later it included the Jews and Christians who did not accept Muhammad as prophet.

This teaching is found in numerous verses of the Koran. Richard Bailey lists 32 passages, annotating them with valuable comments. For the sake of brevity I refer only to four of them. In Sura 2:190 instruction is given to fight until persecution is stopped and Islam is established: "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter."

In Sura 2:216 Muslims are commanded to fight for the cause of Allah, even if they do not like, because Allah knows what is best for them: "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not." Statements such as these make it abundantly clear that for a devout Muslims who follows the teachings of the Koran, fighting to advance the cause of Islam is a divine obligation that can hardly be ignored.

In Sura 8:12,13 Muslims are instructed to cut the necks and fingers of those who opposed God and to never turn their back on unbelievers: "Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): 'I am with you: give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Smite ye above their necks and smite all their fingertips off them. This because they contended against God and His Apostle. If any contend against God and his Apostle, God is strict in punishment ... O ye who believe! When ye meet the unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day –unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own) – he draws on himself the wrath of God, and his abode is hell, – an evil refuge (indeed)! It is not ye who slew them; it was God."

The instruction is clear. When in combat, there is no room for second thought. Muslim soldiers are to finish the job by smiting the head and cutting the fingers of their enemies. The intent of these amputations was to make it impossible for the victims ever to fight again.

Sura 61:4,11-13 teaches that God loves those who fight in His cause with determination. He will give them victory, forgiveness of sins and admission to the pleasure of paradise: "Truly God loves those who fight in His cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure ... that ye believe in God and His Apostle, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the cause of God, with your property and your persons. That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to gardens [Paradise] beneath which rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in gardens of eternity. That is indeed the supreme achievement. And another (favor will He bestow), which ye do love–help from God and a speedy victory. So give the glad tidings to the believers."

One of the benefits of fighting for the cause of Islam is the permission to take captured women as concubines, in addition to several legitimate wives. Sura 33:50: says: "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers, and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom God has assigned to thee ... For the believers (at large), We know that We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess ..." The notion that God would assign captured women as concubines to Muslim believers who fight for His cause, hardly reflect high moral standards of the Islam faith. Polygamy and servile concubinage have destroyed the dignity of women and the beauty of the home. In this areas the infinite superiority of Christianity is clearly evident.

By teaching that those who die fighting for the cause of Allah will have their sins forgiven and are admitted into the pleasure of Paradise, the Koran has inspired Muslims throughout the centuries to fight unto death for the cause of Allah. Today it is inspiring young Palestinians become suicide bombers. For them a "martyr's death" is the surest and quickest way to a better life of comforts, prosperity, and pleasures in Paradise. "Suicide bombers" see themselves as carrying out the teaching of the Koran, while serving their communities and acquiring admission in paradise.

Sura 55:52-58 describes Paradise as a place where there "will be fruits of every kind, two and two... They will recline on carpets, whose inner linings will be of rich brocade. The fruit of the gardens will be near (and easy to reach)... In them will be (maidens), chaste, restraining their glances, whom no man or Jinn before them has touched ... like unto rubies and coral." The sensual element pollutes even Islam's vision of Paradise. Believers are promised not only blooming gardens, abundant food, fresh fountains, but also beautiful virgins. Seventy-two beautiful virgins will be created for the enjoyment of the meanest believer. A moment of pleasure will be prolonged a thousand years. This pleasure-oriented Paradise differs radically from the Biblical view of the world to come as this planet earth restored to its original perfection for the habitation of the redeemed who will engage in productive activities and the elevating worship of God.

Stage Four: Offensive War is Commanded Against the Pagans, Christians and Jews.

The final phase of Muhammad's teaching on warfare developed after he conquered Mecca in 630 A. D. Most of the pagans living in the city became Muslims. At that time Muhammad was able to take over the city and cleanse the Ka'aba (sacred shrine) of some 360 idols resident there.

At this point it became evident to Muhammad that Jews and Christians would not accept him as prophet, so they became part of the list of Islam's enemies to be conquered. Thus, warfare was no longer to be a defensive fighting, but an aggressive Jihad against all unbelievers. This is the final teaching of the Koran which is still in force today and has inspired the recent acts of terrorism.

There are several texts commanding offensive warfare to kill the pagans, Jews, and Christians. Among them Sura 9:5 stands out for its explicit injunction to slay the infidels: "When the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war). But if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity [become Moslem], then open the way for them." The best way for people to save their lives, was by renouncing their religion and adopting the Islam faith. In some instances conquered people could save their lives by paying a heavy tribute and becoming submissive to Muslim rulers.

In the same chapter, Sura 9:29-31, Muslims are commanded to fight Jews and Christians until they are subdued. Those who submitted themselves to Muslim rulers were to be subjected to a heavy tribute. The reason is because God's curse is upon them: "Fight those who believe not in God nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, (even if they are) of the people of the Book [Christians and Jews], until they pay the jizya [tribute] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. The Jews call Uzair [Ezra] a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the Son of God ... God's curse be on them."

Sura 5:36-38 prescribes four types of punishments for those who oppose Allah and his prophet, Muhammad: "The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the hereafter, except for those who repent before they fall into your power. In that case, know that God is oft-forgiving, most merciful. O ye who believe! Do your duty to God. Seek the means of approach unto Him, and strive with might and main in His cause, that ye may prosper."

The four types of punishments (cutting off the head, crucifixion, maiming, or exile), which were to be applied according to the circumstances, reveal the ruthless methods used by Muslims invaders to advance their religion. Such methods stand in stark contrast to the teachings of Jesus to win men and women for the Kingdom of God by proclaiming the Good News of God's saving grace through the atoning sacrifice of Christ.

The Teachings on Holy Warfare in Muhammad's Traditions ("Hadith")

The teachings of the Koran on the use of the sword to advance the cause of Islam, are corroborated by the collections of traditions ("Hadith") concerning the teaching of Muhammad. The nine volumes by Iman Bukhari are generally regarded as the most authentic of the Hadith literature. In volume 4 alone Richard Bailey found 283 passages teaching holy warfare (Jihad) to advance the cause of Islam. For the sake of brevity I will quote only four of them

Muhammad said, "A single endeavor (of fighting) in Allah's cause in the forenoon or in the afternoon is better than the world and whatever is in it" (4:50). Again he said, "Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords." (4:73). For Muhammad fighting for the cause of Allah was a way of life. He said, "My livelihood is under the shade of my spear, and he who disobeys my orders will be humiliated by paying Jizya" ( 4:162b).

The "Jizya" is the poll tax paid by subjugated peoples in return for their right to exist. Muhammad said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshiped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshiped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah (either to punish him or to forgive him.)" (4:196 ). The order is clear. Muslims had to fight people until they became Muslims.

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It boggles my mind that his message changes as his status in life changes, like God's message would actually reflect Mohammed's life accomplishments.

That is absurd to me....in a major way.


DD

 

No but to fully understand it you need much more time, I'm sure, than you've spent on it. It's just funny when people read any holy book once or twice and then claim to have knowledge about its true meanings.

EDIT: Apparently, you don't even have to read it, you just have to visit the Freeper forums.


I'm not justifying anything here and I'm not even Muslim, I just think if you're going to claim to have personal knowledge about the intentions of a book that many spend their entire lives trying to understand after a cursory glance, you're deluding yourself.

 

Some fiction needs to be read more than once, other fiction, once is enough.

My problem is with people who follow the fiction and kill others because of the story within, why? Becuase they don't recognize it as fiction......

Yep, typical....laugh about the source, but fail to refute even a SINGLE one of the arguments with quotes of verse and chapter from the Koran...

I have no problem with people studying the Koran, many have and have come to the same conclusions as I have.....

Not everyone believes Mohammed was talking to the Angel Gabriel, at least I certainly don't.

DD

 

As I said before, I don't attempt to justify any killing in the name of a higher power or religion.

I'll ask this before anything else: how many times have you read the book?

I haven't read the book so I'm not in a position to offer any counterpoints. I also wrote the post before you added in most of that. I'd be willing to bet you that stances on Islam from the Freeper forums aren't the generally accepted meanings.

 

In truth I have only read some of it, it is a hard read, more of a rambling based upon a lot of other religions that came before, then changing over time as Mohammed's political situation changes, which to me is a major issue and causes me to lose major interest.

I doubt God's message changes, just because you conquer someone.

Accepted meanings? I am still waiting on a proper explanation of the Satanic versus...which Mohammed said then recanted saying he was under the influence of Satan........

DD

 

I will second this point. Islam is a large and vast religion. I don't think a cursory reading of it or readings of criticism of it can lead to any sort of in depth understanding of it than reading criticisms of Christianity will lead to understanding of that.

 

I think both are worthy of study, and if anyone wants to get in depth about them, fine.

And it is just my opinion, but I think all religious texts are fictional.....

I just wish Mohammed's message was a bit more consistent, at least Jesus was more consistent in his message....

DD

 

So you are admitting you haven't read that much of it and admit you are prejudging it too based upon your own personal view.

 

No offence DaDa, but quoting freepers doesn't exactly lend credibility to your arguments.

 

I've heard your opinion about all religion and that feeds into my point. Religions as large as Christianity and Islam can't be understood through a cursorary reading of holy text and critics of them.

 

I think this is a terrible situation but I will point out that in the original article it never said that the attackers were Muslim. I will agree that given the background Muslims are under suspicion but I'm going to hold final opinion, especially about a whole religion, until there are more facts.

 

Of course I am basing it on my own personal view and the small amount of studying of it I have done.

I just don't find it remotely believable.........I can not get passed the "God is talking only to me through Gabriel" part.

And even if I excepted that, I can not get past the Satanic versus, or that his message changed due to his station in life.

I mean that to me, is just impossible to believe.

So while I can respect people believing in it, same with Christianity, I do not any more believe in religion than I believe Dumbledore is real and was the leader of Hogwarts.

Huh, so how long would you have to study before you are eligible in your opinion to actually HAVE an opinion?

The funny thing is that I think you have to read HISTORY and get the CONTEXT in which they were written.....IMO.

And how hard is something to understand that was written by a bunch of goat herders 1300 or 2000 years ago?

Let me ask you a question, what proof do you have it is real? Or, if you don't have any, why do you believe?

At least Rhester has personal reasons which I can respect, I don't believe, but I respect his reason for him believing...why do you believe?

Well the versus are accurate, and they are fairly self explanatory...it was just the first source in Google.

Even Wiki answers YES to the question about whether the Koran preaches Violence

It would be great if Islam was a religion of peace, and the Koran was more consistent in it's message, but it just isn't.......

DD

 

The problem is when you claim to have some great sort of understanding about the religion when you admit to a very limited knowledge of it and also that you didn't approach your study of it with an open mind. I wouldn't call that a basis to have an understanding.

You can have an opinion at any time. The question that Halfbreed was raising though is how much understanding you have.

I'm not a believer in either Christianity or Islam. I have some pretty strong doubts about much of Buddhism also. I don't claim though to have a very deep understanding of any of them though and try to have an open mind. I will decry the actions of believers in any religion and will also criticize but I'm not going to claim to say I have a deeper understanding or even know more about them especially in discussions with members of those faiths.

I'm not going to presume that Islam teaches violence from some cherry picked verses from critics anymore than I would presume Christianity teaches violence from cherry picked passages in the Old Testament.