Space Ghost: Yeah, you're probably right that no country could indefinitely support high levels of immigration without an extraordinarily high growth rate (like the US around 1900). I'm not sure how good the research I've read is anymore, anyway; haven't read much on the topic since 1994, when it concerned the highschool debate resolution. I've forgotten much of it, but some of the scholars argued that LEGAL immigration is often more harmful, since legal immigrants have better access to federal welfare programs and will report illegally low wages. Strange... ------------------ A few years back on the Senate floor... Phil Gramm: "If Democrats could, they'd tax the air we breathe." Ted Kennedy (jumping up): "By God, why didn't I think of that sooner!" Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001 [This message has been edited by haven (edited June 07, 2001).]
Yes, every serious economic analysis has shown illigal immigration is very healthy for our economy and provides us low costs infrastructure (who do you think cheaply builds your roads and homes). If we were really determined to stop illigal immigration we would start with the companies who employ them. This doesn't happen because the companies know, as well as enough others know (liberals, immigration experts), that immigration labor is a (if not the) key to our productivity and economic growth. As it is, militarizing the border is an inefficient, inhumane, but politicaly satisfying (to many with strong as well as weaker "nationalist" tendencies) way to think we are addressing a major societal problem. But see how much people would really scream we really stopped most immigration (started with businesses) as housing costs across the board rose 35% and our taxes were raised to provide other puiblic infrastructure. [This message has been edited by Desert Scar (edited June 07, 2001).]
There isn't that much of a difference, both of them are breaking American law in order to improve their quality of life. ------------------
Piranhas are freshwater; barracudas are saltwater. I don't know if Piranhas will like the Rio Grande though: there's more to special success than saltiness. Thanks Beto for the article, though I didn't take the time to read it all. Free trade (if you consider that a desirable thing) is not possible unless you allow the free flow of labor as well. Personally, I'm all for opening the doors wide and letting everyone come in. I don't care if it does hurt our economy or my standard of living. ------------------ RealGM Gafford Art Artisan Cakes
Wow. This subject made the "News of the Weird" newsletter this week: LEAD STORIES The Mexican government announced that beginning June 15, it would distribute "survival" kits to its citizens crossing the border illegally into California and Arizona because they face such a rugged journey. Included in the kits are bandages, aspirin, drugs for snake and scorpion bites, dry meat, granola, 25 condoms (or birth-control pills), and anti-diarrhea medicine. Said a Mexican official, "Those who've gone to the U.S. have told us (what) they need." [Fresno Bee, 5-18-01] ------------------ I always thought "With my talent, it's only a matter of time before I'm discovered". Now I think "With my talent, it's only a matter of time before I'm found out".
I think America is crowded enough. I feel sorry for these people, for we were all immigrants at one point, but immigration needs to be controlled. ------------------ "norm, would you like to buy an indian scalp ? This deal isn't gonna make or break me Norm, so don't jerk me around." Harry Carey "Norm, if I had a mohawk scalp, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you."
Like I said and what has been ignored (or at leats sidestepped to smaller issues), if you want to seriously dent immigration you have to start with American employers. But then don't whine when your housing costs shoot the roof as well as your taxes, because our basic infrastructure will no longer be cheap like it is now. There are simply very basic economic laws in place effecting immigration, and it is because of immigrant labor why so many basic things like roads, houses and food are so cheap in this country relative to personal income and why our productivity forecasts look so strong for the rest of the century. If you don't want to start with illegal employment oppertunities as the root of the issue (start with border militarization instead), you are either not paying attention to the economics involved or are heartless, IMO. The only alternative defensible position in this vein that I see is that you want to stop immigration at all costs (starting with employers of them). And you accepted costs includes a huge portion of your wallet going towards this aim--both because of the negative economic impact of taking out cheap labor will have and the increased border enforment costs. I don't agree with the above position, but I can accept it as a valid one. But starting with the border militarization strategy is flat wrong. [This message has been edited by Desert Scar (edited June 07, 2001).]
First, Pirhana's are brackish-water fish. Their predominant habitat is riverways near where they spill into a larger water mass like a bay or ocean. They can be found deep in the Amazon, but they tend to prefer highly oxygenated water which is why they choose water with a higher concentration of salt. However, they cannot usually survive in all out saltwater. On immigration, I think it is very difficult for any of us to truly know how it feels to be poverty stricken, watch our children and families suffer and decide to do nothing. For many Mexican immigrants, coming to America can be the difference between survival or lack of survival. If I were in Mexico and my family was struggling to survive, I'd swim the Rio too. I'd bust my ass in the fields for next to nothing and try to make a life for myself and my family. If that meant breaking a law like crossing the border, so be it. ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
What the ****? Do you know what it is like in Japan or almost any other country? America has soooo much arable land that in terms of pure justice, it is wrong the way we live: using a crazy percentage of the world's resources with such arogance. If I had the power, I'd open the borders; but if I had that type of power, I'd probably try to fix a lot of other problems too. Thank goodness they're handing out those survival packets. ------------------ "I've been on a calendar, but I've never been on time." -Marilyn Monroe [This message has been edited by Kim (edited June 07, 2001).]
Kim, that might be a fine position for you. Just don't complain when it hits your wallet, and support the 1st step of cracking down heavily on emplyers of illegals. Sorry Kim, I see your first effort didn't communicate what you meant to say (I thought you were supprting the "America is Crowded Enough View"). I very much agree with your above post. I recently returned from business and vacation in Europe, and what struck me was that the same view was expressed there (essentially, a cultural "Nationalism" view). The only difference is there (e.g., Britian, Switz., etc.) it mainly appeals to fringe groups, here the arguments persuade far more people because of ignorance and/or economic blinders. [This message has been edited by Desert Scar (edited June 07, 2001).]
Hmmmm....and how many people immigrate to Japan ? You make it seem like all of America is a lush playground where vegetation just freely flows from the earth. Alot of the US is arrid. So, who do you suggest move into the country or the untapped, lush country ? Will the immigrants be able to afford housing ? Or, do we build housing for them ? That won't be good for the world's resources either. Also, would the immigrants agree to not get on welfare ? Opening the borders is not the answer. ------------------ "norm, would you like to buy an indian scalp ? This deal isn't gonna make or break me Norm, so don't jerk me around." Harry Carey "Norm, if I had a mohawk scalp, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you."
gr8-1: What is the answer, then? America has vast amounts of unused land. There aren't many oher places you can say that about. I'm not saying we should completely open up our borders, but I do think Americans are a little detached from reality on the issue. Being born here was one of the luckiest things that ever happened to me; but that's all it was: luck. Some people act like its a matter of personal validation, or something. As for Japan, they have a very strict immigration policy, and in addition, they're an island, so it's tougher to get there illegally. Could you imagine a Chinese person swimming across the sea ? ------------------ A few years back on the Senate floor... Phil Gramm: "If Democrats could, they'd tax the air we breathe." Ted Kennedy (jumping up): "By God, why didn't I think of that sooner!" Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001
Haven, and I am not saying close the doors completely. We were all immigrants in one way or another, I was actually born in Asia. But, an increase in our population will ultimately lead to an increase in the use of our resources. I have a heart and I feel very sorry for the less fortunate. Ideally, I think if we could improve their ways of life in their countries, it would be for the best. Our cities are very crowded and are more expensive to live in. If we open the gates, we could see a sharp increase in population and that population will have to spread. Now, who foots the bill ? I'm sure most immigrants would prefer to live in the city and not the undeveloped countryside. Also, one of the best things about Texas is that there is still some wide open plains. And, there's also a reason why west Texas is so sparsely populated. I think it is alot harder to build and grow things there, and it could be more expensive. Once again, who foots the bill ? Haven, you and I are relatively liberal guys, so I don't think we feel all that different about this subject. Maybe my "America is too crowded" mantra was a bit abrasive, and for that I apologize. I wish I knew of a way where we can all be happy. ------------------ "norm, would you like to buy an indian scalp ? This deal isn't gonna make or break me Norm, so don't jerk me around." Harry Carey "Norm, if I had a mohawk scalp, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you."
triple post ------------------ "norm, would you like to buy an indian scalp ? This deal isn't gonna make or break me Norm, so don't jerk me around." Harry Carey "Norm, if I had a mohawk scalp, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you." [This message has been edited by gr8-1 (edited June 07, 2001).]
double post ------------------ "norm, would you like to buy an indian scalp ? This deal isn't gonna make or break me Norm, so don't jerk me around." Harry Carey "Norm, if I had a mohawk scalp, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you." [This message has been edited by gr8-1 (edited June 07, 2001).]
gr8-1, that is the thing. We can close off immigration, but it will cost us more, not less. This is the whole misunderstaning about the issue. Only legal citizens get access to most all big ticket social services (medicare, medicade, social security, workers comp, welfare, etc.). The positive economic gain from illegal immigration way more than pays for the costs of the few services that often the use (emergency medical care and schoolling of children). It is immigration labor that keeps everything cheap in our country and is a major part of our rosy economic projections for this century (say compared to Japan or Europe). This is the issue none of the stauch anti-immigrant folks (not saying you are) want to take head on, because it is a loser for them politically. If people are willing to pay ($) in the multitude of ways to reduce immigration, that is defensible, but this is where the real debate should be. Placing the blame on the immigrants over the illegal immigration employers is nice policitally, but completely wrong and results in inhumane policies.
gr8-1: I'm sorry if I came off as harsh. No reason to apologize, as I wasn't bothered by what you had to say at all. Rereading my post - I see what it must have seemed like I meant. I never thought you were a person who DID think being American validated you - some other people do. Should have clarified. Immigration is a tough issue - and I don't think there's truly a "right answer." I just don't like to see immigrants demonized, which you weren't doing. I'm recovering from a really awful hangover, so I hope you don't mind my lack of clarity today . ------------------ A few years back on the Senate floor... Phil Gramm: "If Democrats could, they'd tax the air we breathe." Ted Kennedy (jumping up): "By God, why didn't I think of that sooner!" Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001
desert scar, no flame, but could you give me a few examples ? I think we have a couple of illegals where I work, but I don't think they're being paid less. I think they should get whatever the job is supposed to pay (probably don't though). haven, me too. I've already missed a day of class, and that is bad news when you're taking Spanish in the summer. ------------------ "norm, would you like to buy an indian scalp ? This deal isn't gonna make or break me Norm, so don't jerk me around." Harry Carey "Norm, if I had a mohawk scalp, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you."
The U.S. is too crowded is B.S. Hey you can fit all of the people in the world, all 6 billion plus, in Rhode Island and still give everyone 2 square feet or so. I'll Quote Allen Greenspan, paraphrase more like it "Immigration is a huge boost to the economy". Look at history, all great economic dynasties have been boosted by immigrants and low wages. However, don't pretend to feel sorry for someone willing to work for less than minimum wage. My dad did it in San Antonio 30 years ago. It's a drive that's made me an accountant today. What is sad is not the Mexican people risking their lives to come to this country. We all have made difficult treks in our lives. What is sad is that Immigrants with no knowledge of this language and a lot of times no friends or relatives in this country have a enormous drive to succeed in life. And in many times do it a lot better than people born in the U.S.A On a lighter note, today in the Chronicle the TAAS scores increased 4 percent. Hispanics were attributed to the huge increase with a 14% increase. Who says Hispanics enormous work ethics are only attributed to the first generation? ------------------
