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Mexican Drug Violence, Houston Gun Stores

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by pgabriel, Nov 30, 2008.

  1. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    wow looks like you found a loophole in the definition of loophole! You win the prize.
     
  2. fmullegun

    fmullegun Contributing Member

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    I was hoping you would google it.

    The only loophole would be created if you shut down individual sales in a gunshow. The loophole would be that you could walk out into the parking lot and then make the sale.
     
  3. fmullegun

    fmullegun Contributing Member

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    Do you see how loophole works now?

    "I cannot sell you this gun here, but if we walk outside we can avoid this law and make the transaction"
     
  4. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    Do you see how semantics works now?
     
  5. fmullegun

    fmullegun Contributing Member

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    no reply?

    congrats, your argument is crap.
     
  6. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    No crap argument would be arguing that a "loophole" is not really a "loophole" because of your own subjective construction of the word "loophole" (I can tell you that there is no legal definition of the word "loophole" in this context - I just did a full text search over the entire U.S. Code, all sections, and did not find the term loophole used in an actual Code section.)

    You can call it whatever you want - apparently "loopholes" or laxness or whatever you want to call them in VA state gun laws may result in many guns from that state being used in violent crimes in neighboring states according to some statistics. Are you disputing this? Because it seems like you are simply off on a semantic tangent which I don't really care too much about.
     
    #26 SamFisher, Dec 1, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2008
  7. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    I don't like your definition of "loophole." A loophole is a weakness in the construction of regulations that helps to defeat the spirit of the law. In the case of gun control, I think part of our intent is to keep Mexican drug cartels from buying guns in the US and shooting cops with them in Mexico. Insofar as we want to discouarge that practice, there are definitely loopholes in the regulations that do allow it to happen.
     
  8. fmullegun

    fmullegun Contributing Member

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    What is the spirit of the law it is violating?

    I think the root cause is this


    Would a secure border be a more direct solution?
     
  9. fmullegun

    fmullegun Contributing Member

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    You are the one using the term loophole. I am challenging the use of this term.


    MY argument is that changing the laws only when someone is within 500ft or whatever of a gunshow is dumb, really dumb. It only opens the possibility for loopholes.

    You did not come up with this term you just repeated it, I guess without ever thinking about wtf it means. There is no loophole, there is just an effort to stop non-NICS sales of firearms. Just say that.

    I have read your posts and you have the ability to see through BS. Loophole is a BS term.
     
  10. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Contributing Member
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    Of course I will not change your mind, but it is a loophole, I will continue to describe it as such, and will know what is being talked about when it is described. By the definition of the word that I know, and my understanding of the law put in place when Lee Harvy Oswald ordered a Mannlicher-Carcano anonymously by mail to shoot the president, it is a loophole in the intent of the GCA of '68.

    If you want to call it something else, or call french fries "freedom fries" or call suicide bombers "homecide bombers" or play any other linguistic games you can go ahead, but IMO it just makes you look silly.
     
  11. fmullegun

    fmullegun Contributing Member

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    I would call something a loophole if for instance at a gunshow YOU did not have to do background checks. Anything called a loophole at a gunshow to me would mean that the law is different because you are at a gunshow.

    Quick question, if someone is a permanent resident in Texas can they buy a firearm? Will their status keep them from a CHL? Thanks.
     
  12. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Contributing Member
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    If I understand what you are asking correctly, aliens can buy a gun (though for some reason, this excludes non-immigrant aliens from Northern Ireland). The rules are broken down very clearly between immigrant aliens and nonimmigrant aliens.

    When purchasing the gun, 'Immigrant aliens' are required to produce 2 extra documents proving that they've lived in the same place for 90 days. There is a list of things like utility bills that the ATF has for acceptable items.

    Non-immigrant aliens, including people on work Visas like H1B's have to do the same, but also are required to either have a valid state hunting license, or a waver from the Attorney General. I've never seen the waver, so I imagine it is pretty hard to get. If they go with the hunting license, they only can legally own the gun as long as the license is valid.

    Additionally, it can pretty much be expected that there will be a 'delay' of up to 3 days placed on the sale while the ATF establishes the identity.

    As far as a CHL, if they are 'immigrant alien' they can, while 'non-immigrant aliens' can not.
     
  13. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    Could someone break down the meaning of loophole one more time -- i'm not quite up to speed on the term.
     
  14. fmullegun

    fmullegun Contributing Member

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    Sorry I meant someone with permanent resident status. Commonly called a green card. Are they treated similar to a citizen? I know there is a "Are you a citizen?" question on the 4473 but have no idea what turn that takes you down. Fortunately I was blessed to be born in Texas.

    It seems like you are saying the level is citizen then it drops to immigrant alien. I guess technically a permanent resident is not an alien.
     
  15. fmullegun

    fmullegun Contributing Member

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    LOL!

    just be glad i restrained myself from talking about the misuse of the term "assault rifle" in the article!
     
  16. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Contributing Member
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    If you have a green card you qualify as immigrant alien. I'm not up on all the different categories of immigration, but I am positive that a green card puts you in that immigrant alien category.

    from the new revised 4473:

    [rquoter]
    Question 20.c Documentation for All Aliens:

    Sale of Firearms to Legal Aliens:
    A buyer who is not a citizen of the United States must provide additional documentation (beyond a valid government-issued photo identification that contains the buyer's name, residence address and date of birth) to establish that he or she has resided in a State continuously for at least 90 days prior to the date of the sale. Examples of appropriate documents to establish State residency are utility bills from each of the last 3 months immediately prior to sale. A licensee may attach a copy of the documentation to ATF form 4473, rather than record the type of documentation in question 20.c. Acceptable documentation to prove 90-day continuous residency must be original documentation (e.g. utility bills, current bank statements, rent reciepts, mortgage payments, lease agreements, personal property tax bills, documents issued by Federal, State, or local government agencies, first-class mail issued by government agency, insurance policies, or bill with current address or major credit card bill.)

    [/rquoter]

    Basically, the person with the green card would need to bring your green card and the two types of alternate documents proving 90 days continuous residence in the state. They also should expect a delay to the sale, usually of at least one day.

    And they can get a CHL with the same stuff.
     
  17. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    A secure border would be nice. However, it's not the more direct solution. Mexican drug cartels would still be able to buy guns in the US and shoot American cops on this side of the border.

    I think our goal should be to protect Constitutionally-protected gun ownership while reducing as much as possible the criminal misuse of firearms. Insofar as gunshows or person-to-person sales or any other facet of the gun trade reduce our ability to control or prosecute gun crimes on the one hand or reduce the public's freedom to legally own a gun on the other, they are weaknesses in our statutes (or a loophole), imo.
     
  18. fmullegun

    fmullegun Contributing Member

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    thanks, I was always confised on that. I work with many people in various states of status.
     
  19. weslinder

    weslinder Contributing Member

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    The big lie about American guns in Mexico.

     
  20. fmullegun

    fmullegun Contributing Member

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    I don't care if 100% of the guns in their crimes come from here. The action required to fix the problem does not change.

    Mexico has been fighting the increased border security for years, now they have a reason to support it.

    As long as it is legal for US citzens to buy firearms in the US purchasing the gun will never be a problem for mexican criminals. For mexico to stop the guns from being in mexican crime they need to stop the flow into mexico.
     

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