Mario and the 3-4

It isn't whether he can or can't play the scheme... or even flourish in it (doubtful), it is about taking a dangerous player out of position to succeed. Like allowing a lion to only hunt in water. The lion might still be dangerous, but he is no longer the King of the Jungle.

 

When you're getting paid like Haynesworth is he should at least put forth his best effort and try, and not become a fat overweight baby.

 

In regards to Haynesworth specifically, I think a lot of it has more to do with his attitude than his statement of potential fact.

He's probably right, it isn't a system suited for him, but there were probably better ways he could have gone about it - Shanahan has equal blame in the matter, imo.

I am nowhere close to an expert on football schemes, but from what I do know, I'd lean right now towards exploring trading Mario to see what you can get. Maybe he can play in a 3-4, but given there's considerable debate about it, it certainly wouldn't seem like he'll be better suited for said scheme, so why have one of your highest paid and best defensive players playing in a scheme at a minimum less-suited for him? And why not trade him when you can get the most value for him, as opposed to after trying the experiment for a year?

 

Pretty straightforward, Mario cannot play the 5-technique. Lining up on the outside of the tackle and controlling the line is not Mario's specialty. A 3-4 end is responsible for two gaps, on the inside and outside shoulders of the tackle. Plus, a 3-4 end is responsible to engage the tackle, read the play, shed the block, and stop the play. This is vastly different from Mario's current responsibility of setting the edge on a run and bull rushing on a pass. There is a lot of freedom to attack as 4-3 end, but in a 3-4, the end must control the line of scrimmage and make the play or else his team gives up a huge chunk of yards.

Outside Linebacker is the only other place Mario could play in 3-4. But as a rush linebacker, he needs to be able to play coverage which is not among his strengths. The whole point of 4 linebackers in the 3-4 is to disguise the 4th rusher. If the rush linebacker can't play coverage then any smart QB will bait him into blitzing and throw a short route to that side.

Finally, the whole argument against Mario in 3-4 is not that he can't play, but can he be just as effective or even better than what he does in a 4-3? Mario's natural skills and talent fit him best in 4-3 and moving him to 3-4 just for the sake of it would be detrimental to his career. Honestly, the best thing for Mario would be to play next to a stud d-lineman like let's say we draft Nick Fairley and put him there with Mario. That move alone would pay more dividend than any scheme shift. This way Mario can no longer be doubled and with Fairley in the middle, both would eat up their blockers. In the end, it's personnel not technique that needs to be changed in order to improve our defense.

 

This I agree with for the most part. Wouldn't go so far as to say "can't" play 5 technique and Phillips defense is a one gap as opposed to a 2 gap 3-4 which would be a little bit better for Mario. The other thing to keep in mind is the $$$ you are about to pay Mario. Do you want to invest $100 million in a guy that probably won't reach double digit sacks from his new position? Teams rarely pay that kind of cash for a 3-4 DE. At OLB as the above mentions, you are asking Mario to learn coverage schemes and I think you would allow teams to neutralize him somewhat by sending a TE or RB into a pattern in his area. If the Texans weren't in year 9 of sucking, I'd be all for experimentation, but in this case I'd just assume use the guy where he has proven ability.

 

I believe Mario Williams could play in a 3-4 defense. I believe he can be a Richard Seymour type player as a 3-4 end. He and Antonio Smith both could play the end positions. Barwin and somebody else (possible someone like Von Miller or Shawn Merriman) could play outside linebackers and Cushing and Ryans could play 3-4 inside linebackers. That way you can have the most number of pass rushers out there with Cushing, Smith, Barwin, Williams, and whoever you want has the other 3-4 outside linebacker. Merriman played under Wade Phillips in San Diego and Von Miller is a likely top 10 pick. You need a big fat nose tackle to have a good 3-4 defense. This team doesn't have that right now. You could after somebody like Shaun Rogers who will likely be traded or cut. Aubrayo Franklin is a top 5 nose tackle and will be a free agent if there is a new CBA.

I think Wade Phillips will be the new defensive coordinator. He is a 3-4 guy but like his dad said, he also could coach the 4-3. Most of the top defenses (Ravens, Packers, Steelers) are 3-4 defenses and I prefer that type of defense as well but if only you find a good nose tackle.

 

A few things:

Whether an end or tackle is a 2 gap position is dependent on the system, there is a one gap 3-4. It's one of the main differences between the phillips 3-4 and NE's 3-4.

Mario is actually given a lot of responsibility in this system. He plays the run pretty well, at least when healthy. He even goes back into coverage sometimes, though rarely and not much of an impact.

Disguising the blitzing LBer is mainly an aspect of the Steelers 3-4 zone blitz and maybe the Jets. In Miami and GB you know who it's Cameron and Clay.

 

Seems to be some disagreement about this point. From LanceZ:

 

Another thing about the 3-4 versus 4-3. Texans never have had a pass rush. I believe it's much easier these days to find hybird linebackers/ends like Jerry Hughes and Von Miller than pure 4-3 ends. Antonio Smith is a decent player but he doesn't bring enough pass rushing to the position. With his size, I think he would be a perfect player as a 3-4 end. Cushing could play inside or outside linebacker in a 3-4 but I think it’s best if he is an inside linebacker so you can get another pass rusher on the field. Wade Phillips is a great defensive coordinator so I am sure if he comes on board that he will find the right mix.

 

Mario Williams=Demarcus Ware in Wade Phillips 3-4! Mario will be fine! Wade was the DC of the Bills with Bruce Smith and if I remember correctly, he was a QB sacking monster during those years! Again, Mario will be fine and will still put up great stats!

 

I agree but I don't care what kind of stats Mario has. All I care is having the best defense possible. I would not change a defensive scheme just because one player may not fit in. If Wade wants to coach a 3-4, I hope the Texans change the scheme if they hire him. He has a proven track record as a defensive coordinator.

 

Smith is pretty much the only one on that line I have no problem with, minus a few boneheaded things. But he's got a great motor and he even showed initiative/leadership with calling that players only meeting for the defense.

 

Decent stats.

 

Averaging almost 10 sacks a year while being constantly double teamed and playing with some pretty bad injuries. Its not just his stats that stick out! He is very good in run defense and he always is in the top in QB pressures! Sounds pretty darn great for a player most on this board thought was going to be a bust!

 

I think people are getting ahead of themselves with talk already of Wade Phillips as our DC. First, the OP only asked whether Mario could play 3-4. The question wasn't whether the Texans could play 3-4? Had it been the latter than the answer would be resounding N-O. We do not have a big nose tackle up the middle which is the most important part of the 3-4. Shaun Cody is not a 3-4 NT, PERIOD.

Also, someone earlier compared Mario to Richard Seymour without having the slightest idea what either does in their defenses. To draw a better comparison I'm going to use Dwight Freeney who should be Mario's and every other 4-3 end's role model. Have you ever seen Freeney and Seymour play defense? Freeney is a freak with tremendous speed and bull rush to blow through his blocker or spin right around him. Seymour on the other hand, has excellent speed to get upfield but his responsibility is not to go after the QB but instead to maintain his gap assignment and collapse pocket and make a play. Two completely different styles of play here. Freeney (4-3 end) will attack the line and get to the QB for 1-2 sacks a game while Seymour (3-4 end) will make 2-3 big plays on defense that won't show up in the box-score but will change the dynamic of the game without much notice. That is the major difference between a 3-4 end and 4-3. The numbers will always favor the 4-3 guy with double digit sacks but ask around, most coach will tell you how hard it is to find an unselfish, team-player to take on the role of the 3-4 end.

Back to the Mario 3-4 argument,

What about his two-gap assignment?
What about controlling the line of scrimmage?
Will Mario be willing to have less sacks every year from now on?

Look, people throw around these ideas of moving a guy to 3-4 without taking the time to realize what exactly he is going to be asked to do. Like I said in my previous post, Mario cannot control the line of scrimmage and can neither play coverage, the two most important parts of the 3-4 end positions. Lastly, the idea the Phillips is going to come in and change everyone around and fix the defense to a 3-4, is complete pipe fantasy. Even the best 3-4 schemer of our generation Bill Belichick, had to use 3 number one picks (Seymour, Warren, Wilfork) to build an effective 3-4 defense. Parcells and then Phillips did the same with Ware, Spears, Spencer, and Carpenter.

The reality is that a move to a 3-4 even under Phillips would require several drafts and dumping at least half of the personnel on defense. Unless Phillips c bring a Damarcus Ware with him from Dallas like Rex Ryan brought Bart Scott, I don't see the Texans moving to a 3-4 any time soon.

 

This talk isn't because of Phillips hopefully. He's the last thing this team needs. Reassembling/addressing the D without focusing on the non-phase issues of the staff is just a bandaid.

 

John McClain was actually discussing this on 610 this afternoon. He said Wade talked to some folks in Buffalo about how he ran his defense when Bruce Smith was there, and Smith played pretty much his whole career in a 3-4, but they would line him up a bit differently than other 3-4 ends and shade the nose tackle to his side. It can be done but there is a risk of course. And Mario is too big to play outside linebacker, can you imagine him in pass coverage? I think it is a simpler approach to keep the 4-3, but as long as it gets results I don't what form they run. I do think the 3-4 is en vogue and one of the benefits of running it, namely getting players later in the draft to rush the passer and play the nose, is lost since those type of players are in greater demand, such as a guy like Tyson Jackson going 5th overall in the draft.

 

Two things here -

1. I don't know the details of what changes Phillips made in all his previous stops, but everywhere he's taken over as head coach, he's immediately improved the team. The teams took steps backward over the following years, but he's taken over a bunch of non-playoff teams and immediately taken them to the playoffs. Since I don't think anyone considers him an offensive or motivational defense, I'm assuming he improved all those various defenses immediately. Like I said, though - I don't know the circumstances he took over, so they may already have been 3-4 defenses going in.

2. The defense right now is one of the worst in history. They might have to dump half the personnel on defense anyway to make this a functional 4-3 defense. If a team should ever be open to making structural changes to a defense, this would be the time.

I'm certainly NOT arguing for Wade Phillips because that's not a long-term solution. But I don't think the next coach or DC should be picked based on whether he runs a 3-4 or 4-3 because they need to blow up the whole defense anyway.

 

You're right, the 800 lb tunas will whoop his butt.