link LONDON - Police identified the man who was chased down in a subway and shot to death by plainclothes officers as a Brazilian and said Saturday they no longer believed he was tied to the recent terror bombings. Friday's shooting before horrified commuters prompted criticism of police for overreacting and expressions of fear that Asians and Muslims would be targeted by a "trigger-happy culture" after two well-coordinated attacks in two weeks. Police expressed regret for the death of the man at the Stockwell subway station, identified Saturday as Jean Charles de Menezes, 27. Witnesses said he was wearing a heavy, padded coat when plainclothes police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him about five times in the head and torso. Hours after the shooting, Police Commissioner Ian Blair said the victim was "directly linked" to the investigations into attacks Thursday and July 7. In the latter, suicide bombings on trains and a bus killed 56 people, including four attackers. Police initially said the victim attracted police attention because he left a house that was under surveillance after Thursday's bungled bombings, in which devices planted on three subway trains and a double-decker bus failed to detonate properly. Stockwell is near Oval station, one of those targeted. "He was then followed by surveillance officers to the station. His clothing and his behavior at the station added to their suspicions," police said Friday. But Saturday, a police official said on condition of anonymity that Menezes was "not believed to be connected in any way to any of the London bombings." "For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets," a spokesman said on condition of anonymity, which is police policy. However, police did not explain what went wrong or say whether Menezes had done anything illegal. In Brazil, the Foreign Ministry said it was "shocked and perplexed" by the death of Menezes, whom it did not name but described as "apparently the victim of a lamentable mistake." The ministry said it expected British authorities to explain the circumstances of the shooting, and Foreign Minister Celso Amorim would try to arrange a meeting with British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw during a visit to London. Brazilian media reported that Menezes was an electrician who had been legally living and working in England for the past three years. He originally came from the small city of Gonzaga, some 500 miles northeast of Sao Paulo in the state of Minas Gerais. "He spoke English very well, and had permission to study and work there," Menezes' cousin Maria Alves told the O Globo Online Web site from her home in Sao Paulo. Menezes' family was Roman Catholic. When asked if he had become Muslim in Britain, Agostino Ferreira Rosa, a policeman in Gonzaga said: "According to his family, he had nothing to do with Muslims or Islamism. He was Catholic." "There was no reason to think he was a terrorist," Menezes' grandmother, Zilda Ambrosia de Figueiredo, told the Globo TV late Saturday. "He was very easygoing and very communicative with everybody. It's terrible what they have done to him." Mayor Ken Livingstone said the killing was a "human tragedy" that was a consequence of the attacks. "The police acted to do what they believed necessary to protect the lives of the public," he said. "This tragedy has added another victim to the toll of deaths for which the terrorists bear responsibility." Livingstone drew a hard line before the mistake became clear, declaring that anyone believed to be a suicide bomber faced a "shoot-to-kill policy." The shooting was an indication of the nervousness and anxiety around the city of about 8 million people. A police watchdog organization, the Independent Police Complaints Commission, said it would investigate the shooting but make sure not to hinder the bombings probe. Shami Chakrabarti, director of the civil rights group Liberty, said such an investigation was critical for reassuring the public. "It's incredibly important that society remains united at such a tense time, it's very important that young Asian men don't feel that there is some kind of trigger-happy culture out there," Chakrabarti said. The Islamic Human Rights Commission said "in the current climate of anti-Muslim hysteria, IHRC fears that innocent people may lose their lives due to the new shoot to kill policy." Iqbal Sacranie, secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, said, "It's absolutely vital that the utmost care is taken to ensure that innocent people are not killed due to overzealousness." Police have made two arrests in the Stockwell neighborhood following Thursday's attacks. The second arrest was made late Friday "in connection with our inquiries" into those attacks, Metropolitan Police said. Police have not released many details of the arrests, including the identities of those in custody. Thousands of officers fanned out in a huge manhunt amid hopes the publication of closed-circuit TV images of four suspected attackers would lead to their capture. Blair declined to say if the men in custody were among the four pictured. Security alerts kept Londoners on edge, and fears of a new terrorist attack led Italian soccer powerhouse Inter Milan to cancel its English tour because of safety concerns, a decision criticized by England's Norwich City soccer team. ""For Inter Milan to refuse to travel because of the threat of terrorism is simply giving in to the terrorists," said the team's chief executive, Neil Doncaster. Hundreds of people also gathered Saturday to mourn Anthony Fatayi-Williams, a 26-year-old oil executive among those killed July 7. "The cathedral is full. I can see Nigerians, people from different backgrounds, white and black, I can see people of all ages gathered here representing the different races of humankind," said his uncle, Tom Ikimi, a former Nigerian foreign affairs minister. ___ Associated Press reporters Catherine McAloon and Cassandra Vinograd in London, and Harold Olmos in Rio de Janeiro, contributed to this report.
yeah, just like Bush invading Iraq, and finding out they have no WMD or 911 invollvement. At least the Brits had the balls to admit their mistake...
"shoot-to-kill" What do you think of this policy/order in light of the recent subway and bus bombing incidents in London? Very controversial to say the least. In the shooting accident, the hapless guy was on the ground, literally piled on by no fewer than 3 armed cops. They had him under control, but went ahead to shoot him (5 friggin' times) to death anyhow. Excessive, overzealous, hysterical, unfortunate but understandable, or appropriate?
Maybe the portion of this BBC report can offer an explanation why the shooting victim acted "suspiciously". Is it reasonable to assume then if any one of these "plain clothed officers" had flashed an ID badge, this tragedy might not have occurred? I read somewhere Britain had in the past sent security personnels to receive anti-terrorism training in Israel. I guess displaying badge to a suspect is not a requirement in such training.
Very sad - I wonder if the police announced themselves at all or if he just flipped out and ran when they said "STOP POLICE"? If I was being robbed by 5 guys each of them pointing a gun at me - I think I would just stand still and give them my money instead of trying to out run them.
I was listening to Rush for some insane reason a couple days ago (just before we found out the guy wasn't a terrorist). Rush was on vacation so some other dork was filling in. He said he praised the British for having a strong police force that had the gumption to take out these terrorists. I wonder what he is saying now. He also said we should implement a policy to not only arrest suspects but the entire family. He claims the terrorists are a part of strong family units. That the terrorists aren't some rogue kids so we need to arrest the whole family because the family is the support structure. I guess he missed the Jamaican born bomber who's mother just had a press conference talking about how she had no idea her son was involved. I guess he also doesn't know about the Palistinian bombers that actively recruit 10-14 year old kids without the family knowing. Not to derail this thread. Just venting. Move along.
This is a really sad situation but I have a hard time criticizing the Brit cops without knowing much more. If the guy really had wires sticking out of his jacket and and appeared to be reaching for them while the cops were wrestling him then I would say they may have been justified in shooting him out of fear that he was a bomber trying to trigger his bombs.. For me its just too hard to judge the situation either way without knowing more and also considering what might be going through the cops mind at that time.
"More questions than answers cluster around Mr De Menezes' final minutes when he got there: why was he wearing clothing bulky enough to arouse the suspicion he was hiding explosives? Why was he not challenged sooner? Why did he jump the turnstile when ordered to halt?" full article
This is news, do you have a linked source? What we do know is: 1) he's an electrician; 2) he has been stopped by police twice in the past, each time he cooperated without any incident. 3) he didn't carry his tool bag with him on his way to work on Friday when he was killed. He left the tool bag with a friend near the workplace the night before. (source)
Did anybody know if this "shoot-to-kill" policy was in place when Britain fought the terrorist acts of IRA? If so, did it work?
Oops, sorry, won't do. We can't just shrug our shoulders over this shooting http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1070-1707225,00.html THE POLICE, according to a Sunday newspaper yesterday, fear a “backlash in the Muslim community” after the fatal shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes, an innocent Brazilian electrician, at Stockwell Tube station on Friday. What the police should fear is a backlash from the entire civilised community. Yet there is no evidence that either the politicians or the public will provide it. The theme has been that this was a tragic “mistake”, but one which was unavoidable, even inevitable, in the current climate. The breadth of the coalition of “Oh dear, but . . . ” in this instance is astonishing. ... It has been left to the Brazilian Government to express anger about the manner in which Mr Menezes died. It should not be angry alone. ... But if al-Qaeda has created an atmosphere in which an ordinary person can have five bullets pumped into him by the police, and society shrugs its shoulders, then the terrorists have already won a modest victory. The inconsistency bordering on callousness of Scotland Yard has been breathtaking. It was initially suggested that Mr Menezes was under surveillance and had been approached after he walked from his residence in Stockwell to the Tube station. It is now clear that he started his trip from Tulse Hill, where he had stayed at someone else’s home, was watched, was noted wearing bulky clothing, yet was allowed (despite the slaughter at Tavistock Square on July 7 and the attempted blast on a double-decker at Hackney last Thursday) to board a bus for a 15-minute journey and was challenged only when he sought to buy an Underground ticket. Why was someone whom the police continue to insist was a “potential suicide-bomber” no menace on the No 2 bus, but an urgent threat who had to be taken out when moving in the direction of the Northern Line? And then there was the attempt to “spin” this situation to suit the police immediately after the shooting. It must have been obvious within minutes that the man concerned had no explosives on him and it is highly likely that he had identifying documentation. Yet for hours on Friday police sources were briefing that this shooting was “directly connected” to their inquiries into the botched bombings of July 21 and over the weekend the implication rumbled on that he had lived in, or perhaps near, or somewhere quite close to, multi-occupancy accommodation that had been deemed “suspicious”. This attempt to blame Mr Menezes for his own death continues unabated. It was hinted that he might have been an illegal immigrant, as if that justifies what occurred. It has been argued that it was “irresponsible” of him to wear a quilted jacket in July, as if that were a crime. There are, furthermore, “no excuses”, it is intoned, for the fact that he ran when armed plainclothed police officers shouted at him. I don’t know about you, but if I found myself minding my own business on the São Paulo metro and was suddenly confronted by men wearing no uniforms but wielding weapons, screaming at me in Portuguese, I too might choose to bolt for it. It was not merely the police but their victim who had to make a split-second decision. ...
No I don't have a linked source and don't have time to look for one but am relating what I heard some eyewitnesses say on the news. Given the rush and panic of the situation though I can understand how even eyewitness can be mistaken. As I said though I'm not ruling out that the police are totally at fault and should be held responsible I'm just saying that there is too little I know about it to jump to conclusions to say this was something other than a tragic mistake where the police perceived an immediate threat and acted on it only to discover it was a mistake. The closest analog to this I can think of are the shooting of a wounded Iraqi by a Marine in Fallujah. In both cases people had to make split second decisions to kill someone with lethal force even though they were mostly subdued because of previous knowledge of suicide bombing tactics. Unfortunately we know now for sure that Menezes didn't have a bomb I have no idea if the cop who shot him knew that and didn't honestly believe that the suspect wasn't about to trigger a bomb to take him and the police holding him with him. I've worked with police teaching self-defense and from what I know these sort of split second decisions are never easy to make. If a cop believes their lives and the lives of others are immediately threatened they are not only authorized to use lethal force but expected to. Without knowing more about the background knowledge that the cop who shot him had I'm not going to jump to the conclusion to say that he was trigger happy or grossly negligent.
You armchair QBs need to step off your high horse. This tragic shooting is awful, but understandable. You act as if the police are crazed killers. They were trying to protect the commuters in good faith and admitted a mistake happened. There were two recent bombing/attempted bombing in the London subway system and there were many casualties. Everyone is on edge. You can thank the scumbag terrorist for this. And the lesson stands: Don't run from the police.
I agree...It is a tragedy, but don't get me wrong, if it were someone I knew or a family memeber, definitley would be outraged, however, like you said, everyone is on edge and although that doesn't condone it, it makes it understandable...
