MadMax brought up in another thread that he believed President Clinton should be removed from office because he lied under oath. Now, I don't want this thread to be a dicussion on that, but it brought up something that made me curious. In two separate TV shows I saw last night, the concept of mistrust based on lying was brought up. In both cases, the lying was considered means to an end and justified. In one case, it was done in an attempt to win a court case. In another, it was done to impress someone. We, as a society, seem bent on lying to each other all the while worrying what the other person is thinking. We do everything possible to appear we are something to others that we may or may not be. Our hair, our clothes, our cars, our houses, our significant others, our habits, our business practices and much more are configured to present a certain appearance that speaks to who we are as people. Families pretend there is no problem even though someone may drink to much or abuse a spouse or child. We lie to protect ourselves from embarrasment or ridicule or even incarseration. We lie to save money or to protect our appearance. We lie to get jobs, loans and lines of credit. What I am wondering is this: by creating a false appearance, for whatever reason, aren't we just creating so many bad feelings among ourselves that eventually we will distrust everything and everyone? The primary difference with Clinton is that he got caught in his lie. How many times have others lied to protect themselves or make themselves look better to others an not gotten caught? Wouldn't it just be easier to tell the truth and live with the consequences? ------------------ Save Our Rockets and Comets SaveOurRockets.com
Jeff, Lying is the American dream. Our country was built upon and sustained by lies. Of course, we are not the only ones. It seems to be a new form of human survival - to lie in one's defense (whether it be to a direct attack, or just a continual defense). Also, I think we tend to be very short-sighted. Only now is seen - not ahead. If we guess what may be ahead, it seems worse, we overreact. Thus, lies to make "now" continue without problems. We are also basically taught that lying is )OK. SUre, parents tell kids not to lie, but then they make up all sorts of thigs to keep the kids unaware of the real world. Politicians lie to the masses, we know it - and we let them. We would rather hear their pretty lies than hear the ugly truth. It is easier. Tobacco companies lie, meat industry, dairy, automobile, military, etc. How can we escape this? You are right, it leads to lack of trust and nihilism. I think we are already pretty far down that path. On a personal note, I had a big problem with lying when I was younger. Then one day, I did not like myself, so I made a concentrated effort not to lie. I still remember the first time I went against my natural urge and told my mother that I broke something, instead of hiding it. SHe said no big deal, she did not like it anyway and was happy I told her. That was huge for me. Since then I have tried to maintain, I think pretty successfully. ------------------ "One evening I seated Beauty on my knees. And I found her bitter." "I am a sick man...I am a wicked man. An unattractive man. I think my liver hurts."
I suppose you can call it vanity and pride? I've always believed in telling the truth and ask forgiveness. Usually it pays off telling the truth right up, but people these days are so used to others lying to them that they can't help it (relationship especially) Some say im too blunt ... but I tell it how it is. What i think is sad are people who go day in and day out lying to themselves and not realizing it. To some extent,everyone is like this. I suppose you could call it a form of naiveness? I strive hard to be honest with myself, then others. ------------------ ...out with the old, in with the new...
I simply worry that when oaths are no longer respected, that the systems we have set up to provide a best effort at justice are lost. The foundation of a court proceeding is that once you go under oath, you'll tell the truth. If you don't, you're denying the priviliges and rights to another citizen, and thus, you're punished for it. When someone..anyone...lies about their past sexual conduct in a sexual harassment case, that obstructs the ability of the plaintiff to make his/her case. It's magnitized when it's the president, himself, whose primary job is to execute and enforce the laws of the land. If we hold the president to a different and lower standard then we've elected a king, not a president. While military commanders have been imprisoned and court-martialed for the very same action, the Commander in Chief is merely held in contempt of court. I personally find that disturbing. ------------------
As Jim Rome would say..."youre only cheating if you get caught" Of course, most poeple here dont care too much for Rome so..... ------------------ Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women!
When our entire justice system is based on truth and we accept lying then why have justice at all. The oath is "I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God". I do not condone lying but, if a person lied after taking an oath the tell the truth and is not punished for it well why take the oath in the 1st place. Clinton is a unique case and I would say that there are many people who would agree that he should have been removed from office just as there are many people who say that he should not. He took an oath when swearing into the office of the presidency to uphold the law and truth. He is the highest ranking law enforcment officer of this great country. The standards for him should be much higher than the common folk. He was found in contept of court by a judge and his appeals were rejected. Lying can be an everyday occurence but we need to teach our children that lying is bad. The president is setting a bad example but he really does not care as long as he is still in power. But to stay with the title of the thread. Clinton has elevated lying to an artform. I do not wish my children to emulate that. ------------------ Houston Rockets Forever!! In Rudy We Trust [This message has been edited by Dennis2112 (edited August 02, 2000).]
It all started in this country with the Declaration of Independence. "All men are created equal" was written by a bunch of slave owners. Nowadays it is just the snowball effect from that. ------------------ "Your not a real member of CC.net unless you have 1000 posts"
Lying is a habit of ours, if not a trade, and no matter the latitude or longitude of the globe we will always have an interest in it. First thing, If you lie to be decent I have no problem with it. For me it's all about human decency. Second thing, The thing with a lie is you will always get caught sooner or later. There is no getting away with it. Nobody can remember their lie forever, because it didn't happen, and therefor your brain hasn't logged it in as memory. So your going to get caught. It's just a matter of when and if anybody will care when you do. One thing people forget is that lies burn like wildfire throughout the streets and cinder into the country side. They reach more people than you know. Eventually somebody will call you out. Third thing, as for it having an effect on society. Yes, if you lie you will mistrust people more than you would if you were to tell the truth. It's natural. It also empowers you to lie more and more to see just how far you can go. Eventually you go to far and get a reality check. Depending on how big that check is you may or may not continue to lie. Clinton may have gotten a reality check that will change his life forever. He paid consequences beyond what you or I may ever understand. So he got his in many ways. ------------------ humble, but hungry.
What consequences?!? Because he feels bad but blamed the whole thing on the right wing conspiricy? ------------------ Houston Rockets Forever!! In Rudy We Trust
The consequence is that it hurts his legacy. I get that. But that really affects him after his death. In his life, he retained power, which even his most ardent supporters admit is his first priority. I do agree that it will hurt his legacy, though. I think ultimately he'll be grouped in with Ulysses S. Grant as a president whose administration was mired in corruption and whose excesses (for Grant it was alcohol) prevented him from being all he could be. I have a good friend who is a Clinton supporter and a liberal. He says that Clinton is truly a tragic figure because he can't seem to stop putting himself in precarious sexual situations, yet he is amazingly gifted as a politician. Like someone out of a Shakespeare play. ------------------
Max hit the nail on the head. His whole life was dedicated to having a legacy. He can't have the one he wanted. And he knows it. It's a regret that will haunt him throughout the remainder of his life. He may be laughing on the outside, but when he sits alone on the porch you can bet he wishes he had it to do over again. People will never look at him the same, and in Clinton's life, that is something that I believe he needed. So he got his. As far a retaining power. Yeah. He kept it in some sense, but then again, when you lose respect you lose power. The truth would have given him more respect than he currently has, and thus more power. ------------------ humble, but hungry.
OK I see your point. I just feel that he should have been removed from office for some of his antics. ------------------ Houston Rockets Forever!! In Rudy We Trust
Lying under oath should have come with consequences. I'm with you on that, but even though he didn't face the music, He's still going to suffer in many other ways. ------------------ humble, but hungry.
Reagn, Bush, et al, did not feel the consequences of lying under oath. Clinton will always be known as the Nixon of the Democrats. Yawn. Incidentally, this thread was not supposed to be about Clinton. Look at the result. That is the legacy. People cannot let it go. ------------------ Play the Piano Drunk Like a Percussion Instrument Until the Fingers Begin to Bleed a Bit [This message has been edited by rimbaud (edited August 02, 2000).]
Excuse me...when did Bush lie under oath?? When was it ever shown that Reagan lied under oath??? President Clinton was held in CONTEMPT OF COURT for God's sake!!! And if he's the Nixon of Democrats, why the hell do you keep defending him?? I certainly don't defend Nixon. ------------------
MadMax, 1. I have never defended Clinton, merely pointed out other things. I do not like Clinton, allright. Do not assume that just because I try to show that Republicans have done some wrong things, that I am a big Clinton supporter. 2. Reagan and Bush were not caught, you are right. The fact of the matter is, that in March 1981, arms shipments began going to Iran. All CIA covert actions are supposed to be authorized by a presidential "finding." Nontheless Iran/Contra went years without one. At one point, Reagan signed a retroactive finding, which later disappeared. I am sure that Bush, having been the former director of the CIA knew nothing. Reagan also. Sorry for bringing it up. ------------------ Play the Piano Drunk Like a Percussion Instrument Until the Fingers Begin to Bleed a Bit
rimbaud -- certainly you can see why i would assume you support clinton...anytime anyone criticizes him you point the finger the other direction. ------------------
MadMax: No, I cannot see why. PLease provide a link where I have defended him. This is an imprecise forum for conversation, perhaps you misunderstood. In the case of this thread, all I have done is point out that others have lied under oath (not just presidents) and do not face any real punishment. That is the nature of the beast. We raise our politicians up in so many ways, why not extend that to the law. Why don't you defend Nixon? That article you provided suggested the Democrats do the same thing. It has always been done, just to different degrees. Nixons major problem was that he was paranoid and taped conversations. Without those tapes, everything is just speculation. Nixon was a very good politician. He easily out-debated Kennedy, despite losing to him, and was a pretty smart guy, but he was also human. Clinton is also a very good politician, but maybe not as substantial in the debate aspect (no one these days is - since Kennedy), but I do not like him. I do not think, even without the Lewinsky business, he should be considered a great president. I do not point fingers elsewhere in defense of Clinton, I merely accept him for what he is. ------------------ Play the Piano Drunk Like a Percussion Instrument Until the Fingers Begin to Bleed a Bit [This message has been edited by rimbaud (edited August 03, 2000).]
rimbaud -- well sorry if i misunderstood. As for Nixon...he was an excellent president as to foreign policy...as for domestic policy, he was a little more liberal than I'd like. I think he was a good president..but I don't defend him!! He resigned because he brought shame upon the office. The office is more important. He swore to uphold its dignity and he did not. ------------------
Max, do you really think Nixon was a good foreign policy President...? Opening up relations with China and achieving 'detente' with the Soviets were good, no doubt, but I think that having Henry Kissinger on his staff helped. Also, I think we should let the Cambodians vote on this one. ------------------ I didn't use the cocaine to get high, I just liked the way it smelled.
