1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Luka Doncic = James Harden

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by celebrevida, May 29, 2022.

  1. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2006
    Messages:
    91,402
    Likes Received:
    44,044
    Luka is similar but he has another gear in the Playoffs that Harden can probably never get to even if Harden was the Regular Season King.
     
    GermanRakete likes this.
  2. RHU525

    RHU525 Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2002
    Messages:
    4,685
    Likes Received:
    6,436
    Luka in the playoffs relies a lot on his mid range. I think Harden completely cutting out mid range really killed his playoff performances because when the 3 isn't falling and refs aren't calling the fouls on the drives he needed another weapon to go to.
     
  3. StroudAndYorDaddy

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2023
    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    496

    harden smoking WHERE?

    couldnt pull up anything when i searched
     
  4. JumpMan

    JumpMan Member
    Supporting Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,176
    Likes Received:
    4,567
    There's a difference between the offenses the Bulls and Lakers ran and those the Rockets and Mavericks ran. The Bulls and Lakers ran a real system that wasn't built around one player and everyone played together. The Rockets and Mavericks ran fake systems that required players to play for one player instead of with them. The difference is clear and something you either see or you don't.
     
  5. roslolian

    roslolian Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2008
    Messages:
    25,389
    Likes Received:
    15,420
    I'm not sure about the Lakers but Jordan has the highest usage rate in NBA history at 33%:

    https://fadeawayworld.net/nbas-highest-usage-rate-leaders-of-all-time#:~:text=Michael Jordan - 33.26%&text=Additionally, Jordan's usage rate remained,underscoring his enduring offensive impact.

    If the Bulls played with one another instead of orbiting around MJ how come MJ has the highest usage rate in NBA history? And we all know MJ isnt the playmaking savant Lebron, Luka or Harden are. He is scoring when he gets the ball.

    Your post is why most people still think MJ is the goat, its because with him perception often overshadows reality.
     
    Rocket River likes this.
  6. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2006
    Messages:
    91,402
    Likes Received:
    44,044
    This sounded as Jordan played on the Worriers with a lot of Spacing.....and a great moving off ball system.

    :)

     
  7. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2002
    Messages:
    35,888
    Likes Received:
    25,578
    That article uses career usage. But some players did not dominate the offense as much at the early part of their careers and after they started aging and it significantly lowers their career usage. Harden is a prime example.

    They should have used their peak usages to compare their play styles. If you look at the highest 2 consecutive scoring seasons of these players and how their teams faired in those seasons:

    MJ: 38.6 (lost in 1st round), 38.3 (lost in 1st round)
    Iverson: 35.9 (lost in finals), 37.8 (lost in 1st round)
    Kobe: 38.7 (lost in 1st round), 33.6 (lost in 1st round)
    Lebron: 33.5 (lost in 2nd round), 33.8 (lost in 3rd round)
    Harden: 36.1 (lost in 3rd round), 40.5 (lost in 2nd round)
    Luka: 37.6 (didn't make playoffs), 36.0 (lost in finals)

    Lebron has the lowest peak usage, which matches the eye test. He's the least ball dominant superstar among these guys.

    None of them won championship during their peak usage seasons. The most they have gone in the playoffs was Iverson (2001) and Luka (2024) to the Finals. The reason is quite obvious. They had better teams when they won and they didn't have to dominate the offense as much. And it shows that a one-man offense doesn't get you very far even if you are the best of the best.

    The question about the top offensive players are: Can they play effectively with another great offensive player? If they can, then they likely can win it all. If they can't they will have the fate of a guy like Iverson.

    BTW, just for fun. Hakeem's peak seasons (the two championships) had usages of 29.8 and 31.7.
     
    foh likes this.
  8. JumpMan

    JumpMan Member
    Supporting Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,176
    Likes Received:
    4,567
    Like I said, you either see the difference or you don't. Jordan is high in usage rate because he took a high percentage of the shots, free throws, and played around 40 minutes a game.

    Usage rate doesn't take assists into account so I don't know why you mention playmaking. Usage rate does not tell you anything about the ball and player movement of a team's offensive system or how much ball possession a player has.

    The offenses ran for players like LeBron, Luka, Harden, and others like Westbrook are not the same as those ran by the Bulls and Lakers back then. You can't see the differences in a stat like usage rate. Like I said, the differences are clear and if you can't see them, fine.
     
    wekko368 and foh like this.
  9. MadMax

    MadMax Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 1999
    Messages:
    74,401
    Likes Received:
    21,691
  10. roslolian

    roslolian Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2008
    Messages:
    25,389
    Likes Received:
    15,420
    What do you mean by saying "helio centric" when the dude takes the most shots of anyone else in NBA history? Usage rate is based on the total possessions the team since MJ takes all the shots his usage rate is the highest in hostory.

    MJ isnt an off the ball shooter like Rip Hamilton, he basically made ISO ball popular thats why in the 90s and 2000s everybody just isoing.

    Of course the offenses are different but that doesnt mean MJ didnt dominate the ball as much as Lebron and co in fact he dominated the ball the most in history and the stats back it up.

    All that crap you mentioned about "playing with each other" just isnt true since the rest of the Bulls are just defenders and spot up shooters while MJ and Pippen took all the shots.

    The difference is Lebron is a passer he will pass to other guys while MJ will take the shot himself. Thats the difference but they both dominated their team possessions. The facts back it up.
     
  11. roslolian

    roslolian Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2008
    Messages:
    25,389
    Likes Received:
    15,420
    MJ's usage when he won rings is still as high or higher than others peak usage so I dont think that proves anything.
     
  12. roslolian

    roslolian Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2008
    Messages:
    25,389
    Likes Received:
    15,420
    MJ didnt move off the ball as much as Curry.
     
  13. JumpMan

    JumpMan Member
    Supporting Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,176
    Likes Received:
    4,567
    No the stats don't back it up. Usage rate tells you who was the last player to touch the ball on the team before it changed possession. Possession changes when a player shoots the ball, draws a shooting foul or turns the ball over. Jordan did a lot of that, but he was not a player who held the ball so much. At least not once Phil Jackson got to coach him, and he played winning basketball.

    However, it does not tell you who dominated the ball the most in the possession. Players like Harden and Luka are not always the ones who do any of those things, but they still dominate the ball because they make the pass that leads to another player taking a shot, drawing a shooting foul, or turning the ball over. A lot of possessions players like Harden and Luka dominated end in another player making the play that will affect usage rate even though they dominated the ball for most of the possession.

    Those guys still have high usage rates because they took many shots, drew many shooting fouls, and often turned the ball over. If the usage rate stat incorporated the assist-eligible shots taken by the players, we'd get a more accurate representation of their ball possession and the offenses they ran.

    It's not always what you do; it's how you do it. There wasn't so much standing around as there is on teams running these heliocentric offenses. Same with the Shaq and Kobe Lakers, BTW. Even though Kobe and Shaq finished most of the plays, the others still contributed to their offense to a higher degree than players who played with Harden, LeBron, Luka, Westbrook, and even guys like SGA. That's why I say play with them instead of playing for them.

    Those LeBron passes do not show up in the usage rate stat. So, yeah, the usage rate is a fact, but it does not show what you think it shows.
     
    wekko368 and GermanRakete like this.
  14. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2006
    Messages:
    91,402
    Likes Received:
    44,044
    Kyrie forked up in the Finals alright, he did have a nice little run but darn the Celtics are his bug a boo.
     
  15. JumpMan

    JumpMan Member
    Supporting Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,176
    Likes Received:
    4,567
    And his usage rate is still at all-time levels. I wonder why.
     
  16. Jontro

    Jontro Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2010
    Messages:
    34,899
    Likes Received:
    22,826
    emjay invented air and the slam dunk. he could have a 99.9 usage rate if he wanted.
     
  17. roslolian

    roslolian Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2008
    Messages:
    25,389
    Likes Received:
    15,420
    Because he dominated the ball same as Lebron and Luka? It aint that hard to figure out.
     
  18. roslolian

    roslolian Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2008
    Messages:
    25,389
    Likes Received:
    15,420
    Those Lebron passes means the other players have higher usage cuz they actually did something with the ball. In fact Lebron has among the lower usage rate of top superstars this shows how unselfish he is.


    What you are trying to argue is MJ teammates massaged, dribbled and passed the ball a lot, but MJ still took the shot at the end of the play. First of all wheres the proof of that MJ just played off the ball every posession? Secondly how is that even better? If everyone is passing the ball around like you are claiming then Bulls players would have a more even usage rate. Why do they keep passing the ball around but only MJ takes the shot every play? Does that make any sense to you?

    Have you ever played basketball? When do you feel involved, when you take the shot or you dribble the ball halfcourt then another dude asks for the ball and hogs all the shots every possession?
     
    #538 roslolian, Jun 18, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2024
  19. GermanRakete

    GermanRakete Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2020
    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    59
    I would suggest for you to study the evolution of the Bulls when they went from Iso-Jordan (ok, that is an overstatement) to the triangle which moves the ball more. They started winning Rings when MJ trusted his teammates more. This is one of the most wellknown facts of BB-History.
    hands.
    Of course, in the end of the day/the play, MJ still has the Ball in his hands to finish it.
     
    JumpMan likes this.
  20. GermanRakete

    GermanRakete Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2020
    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    59
    Ok, 2016 never happened then.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now