I Posted part of this as a Response to Mr.b*stard's Post but I wanted to give it its own Topic I think it boils down to Rudy wanting to give experience to the young guys and Hakeem wanting to win every game. Hakeem has always been a competetive guy and if he feels he's playing better than others he wants to be out there on the floor. Look at last night 16 minues 4-8 from the field, 10 points, 7 rebounds 2 steals and a block and only one turnover. Yesterday of course he was sick like Mo and KT so its understandable also with Dallas Small ball line-up. Like i've stated in earlier posts. Hakeem has the highest fg%, best post defender (the only one that make Stoudamire change his shot a few times against portland, and why he wasn't in the 4th quarter of that game is beyond me) 2nd in Steals, best Rebounder by far and is the most clutch player on the team. Hakeem wants to Win now, not let people that arent as good get experience at the cost of winning! Would you rather have Hakeem in the game and win now...or give experience to guys that may not thrive at the expense of the Playoffs? ------------------ ------------------
So, is there such a thing as a non-sequitur, hypothetical, rhetorical question. Will, Have you ever heard that in DC?
Wazuuuuuuuuup yall? After a long absence, i am back. I had forgotten my password, but one of my friends helped me remember it. Neway, Hakeem is the best center on this team. Keeping him on the floor will provide better defense and also better rebounding for this team. He is also a clutch player, with experience from two championships. Hakeem has a valid quam in the rockets, who do not let him play and let inexperienced players take his place in crunch time, when the game is on the line. Hakeem had the full right to argue for more time, and if we keep him in the lineup, we should be more successful. ------------------
The more shots Hakeem takes, the less we win. Check the stats. In games where Hakeem dominates and Francis shoots less, the Rockets lose. In fact, the stats are inversely proportional. When Francis shoots twice as much as Hakeem, the Rockets win. When it is the reverse, they lose. You also mentioned FG%. Hakeem's FG% is lower because he shoots less. In games where he shoots more often, his percentage comes down. The same thing is true with Francis, but, when Francis shoots the ball more often, even though his percentage is lower, the Rockets win. The more Francis shoots, the larger the margin of victory. If it were as simple as more shots for Hakeem = more wins, that would be one thing, but it isn't. At least, not so far. Now, that doesn't mean Hakeem shouldn't shoot at all. It just means he needs to shoot less than he has in the past. Nothing against Dream. Actually, he is an important part of the team and we need him to succeed. We just don't need him in the same way as we have in the past. ------------------ Mmmmmmm. Sacrelicious.
Jeff, I think you mean Hakeem's FG% is higher b/c he shoots less. Anyway, The statistic about Francis' shooting vs. Hakeems # of shots resulting in wins is a bit premature seeing how we finally have a healthy Hakeem in the lineup. He is feeling his way in the new offense so when its running smoother Francis knows how to get his shots, whereas Hakeem still looks lost at times (albeit less each game, but he still looks uncomfortable at times) But I respect what he is doing, setting picks constantly, attaining points within the flow of the offense. What I feel his concerns are is that he is not on the floor at crucial times. Jeff, I don't think that he wants to take 20 shots a game, I just think he feels he's not being utilitized when he can help the team win now. Instead Rudy wants to give other players experience at the cost of winning. Hakeem sees that and it upsets him. Its not about points or shots, but who can help the Rockets win. The answer to me is a Hakeem that is more integrated in the offense/defense. Hakeem always stated he shouldnt play because of what he has done in the past, but because of whe he can do now. And now he seems frustrated that his talents are being maximized, and that if some other team can better use his talents next season then so be it. If Rudy does not use him up to his ability, then he should leave after this season and we'll be another Phoenix, NY, Orlando perimeter based donut team. I for one think Hakeem in a team like Orlando, Miami or Phoenix could do wonders. Hakeem could be a vital cog in a team pushing for a championship and i think if we're not at that level he should reconsider signing with us even if we want him next year. He'd rather play in Houston i'm sure, but if we're not good enough or not willing to use him because we would rather give guys experience than win, we'll Hakeem could still help a team get a ring. I'm sure after his performance in Phoenix they'd consider him. Especially after what Hakeem's done to phoenix over the years.........Thoughts? ------------------
The flip side is that the Rockets might be giving up a game or two early in the sason by letting the younger players get their mistakes out of the way now rather than wait for them to go to the school of hard knocks in the future. In essence, one step back and expect a great leap forward in the near future. With Dream & Charles having very short seasons in 1999-2000, the rebuild/learning process was implemented last season. Why it should be derailed now to placate Dream is beyond me. Mango ------------------ Lets get the Mo Go working! Test Your NBA Trade Ideas 1. Put new topics in the proper forum. Things happening in the rest of the NBA 2. Use clear wording for new threads. 3. No duplicate threads 4. Conduct yourself as an adult. The Serious Police are watching. Donate Blood or be assimilated!
FD, just curious, how many games have you watched this yr? The type of thing you want from Hakeem, setting screens, receiving the ball off guard penetrations and a few sprinkled in post touches is what has been happening this season. The problem is that Hakeem demanded that he get even more touches in the post. I am a big proponent of mixing in a post game with the guard game which I have expressed pretty clearly, but I dont think it makes sense to give Hakeem the amount of touches he is looking for. I feel a young player needs to be established in that role ie. Maurice Taylor who has no problem scoring. Even then, the post needs to be about 30-40% of the offense through the first 3 quarters and then just go with who is hot in the fourth. Hakeem and a lot of his closest fans ie. you, ZRB, etc are having a lot of problems accepting the fact that he is way past his prime and this team needs to move on. I have felt that Hakeem has been the most effective when he is playing off the guards and not the initiator of offense. Have you seen how painful the offense looks when they just dump it down to Hakeem? He kind of watches for a few mins then tries to make a move. Its as if he is scared to go to the jump hook which used to be a major move in his arsenal b/c he does not get enough lift on it. He just watches for a few minutes thinking what to do then just shoots a dreamshake from the baseline. Its not instinctive and explosive like it once was. If you throw Hakeem against the premier frontcourt players in the West, he can no longer dominate them like he once could. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
Mmanal and others have made the case pretty well, i just wanted to add one thing. Hakeem, right now, is probably better at hitting open jumpers than he is at posting up. I think one of the greatest services he can do the team is by drawing the center out of the lane to the key, so that Francis & co. have an open path to the basket. he *certainly* can still do this... ...how many shots do *you* want Hakeem ot have from teh post? As mmanal mentioned, he is getting some. Oh, and why do you think giving the ball to Hakeem would help houston win now? Do you *truly* believe that the ball is better in his hands than Francis' (or even Taylor's in the post?)? ------------------ Shandon Anderson rocks. The lottery sucks. Playoffs 2001.
Manal, I've Watched almost every game this year and most for the last 10 years and maybe thats why i hold such a bond with i'm sure does not allow me to be impartial with the Dream. I just feel that there are games such as the Portland game in which he was underutilized by being on the bench when the game was on the line. When they placed Hakeem on Rasheed, he was the only one slowing him down, as well as altering Stoudamire's drives. Same thing with McDyess in the Denver game. I just think he should be in the game during crunch time minutes. I think its great what he's doing in the offence, i just think he should be out there when it counts. When he's not, he's being underutilized. Maybe as I stated in my earlier post, it would be mutually beneficial to trade him to a team that is on the verge of a championship. I'm sure Hakeem would love a chance for another ring, as much as that would hurt us all to see Dream in another Uniform.....to see Dream get another ring would be worth it. What teams do you all think he could help? I stated Miami, because of Grant is a great low post defender that will give dream the freedom to block shots similar to what OT did for Dream in the early 90's. Plus Then Mason could move to small forward again which would be a defensive nightmare with Dream, Grant, Mase, EJ ...... Even Phoenix is an option. With Cliffy and Marion he wouldnt have to work very hard on Rebounds and could play post defense and bring Centers like shaq out of the middle with his Jumper. But Phoenix almost mirrors our team in a few years unless Cato pan's out and if we draft a Griffin sort of player like Marion ------------------
The reason our loyalties are with Hakeem first and the Rockets second is because Hakeem is the Rockets just as Jordan was and always will be the Bulls. The Rockets were the original Clippers until Les bought the team from Charlie Thomas and fired Steve Patterson. What Dream had to endure in this organization is what made me realize that Hakeem was more of a legend than we all realized. Is Dream a saint? No! He has done some very stupid things. Especialy early in his career but did he deserve the treatment he recieved? Certainly not. When the the NBA was rolling out the red carpet for the all-stars in the 80's and early 90's, Dream was treated like a scab player by his own organization. I like Rudy and I like Les but they didn't win us the Championship's nor did Kenny Smith, Robert Horry, Vernon Maxwell, Clyde Drexler, Mario Elie, Sam Cassell, Otis Thorpe.... or whoever else we had. Dream won us those titles. It baffles me when people sit here and say that we are better off with the ball in the guards hands versus posting up. Lets take a look at the past 20 years of NBA champions. 79-80 LA won with Jabbar and Magic who was no stranger to posting up but an all around strong front court. 80-81 Boston won and had a frontline of Bird, Mchale, Parish, Maxwell 81-82 LA again but this time with Bob McAdoo also 82-83 Philly finaly wins behind Moses and the Dr 83-88 Boston and LA flip flop titles with LA adding Michael Cooper, Orlando Woolridge, James Worthy to the front court and Boston adding Bill Walton. 88-90 On paper Detroit wins behind Joe Dumars, Isiah Thomas, Vinnie Johnson, but it was the intimidating play of their frontcourt that wins them the titles. 90-93 Jordan is the key but without the front courts of Cartwright, Pippen, Grant, Williams, and King the Bulls might not have beat the Knicks 94-95 Olajuwon, Thorpe, Amigo, Horry, Earl "the Pearl" nuff said 96-98 Bulls again with Rodman now. 98-99 Spurs we all know the front court there 99-00 LA we know whats there also I could have gone earlier than the past 20 years but a vast majority of us did not watch those era's (me included). Basicaly a team based around the backcourt primarily will never win without a dominant frontcourt, but a dominant frontcourt can win without a great backcourt. I'm very sorry that my post took all your bandwidth but its just something I had to say. ------------------ "We need to fockass".....Dream back in the day
Scarface: You've successfully proven that a decent frontcourt is necessary. This, however, says nothing as to what is *more* important... and I think it can be either. Those Laker teams you mentioned: the best player on those teams was Magic, not Worthy or Abdul-Jabbar (at that point). For Detroit, yes the thugs were nice, but take away Zeke and his buddy Dumars and that team might not have made the playoffs. The bulls: PLEASE! Their frontcourt was and is a frickin' joke... that's why the Rockets had so much success against them... none of them could guard Hakeem. Certainly, the Bulls wouldn't have been as good w/o Rodman, but he was probably 3rd or 4th in importance. Let's look at it this way, in all those years you mentioned, in how many years was the team's MVP a guard? Looking briefly at your list, more than half (Magic, Zeke, Jordan). Also, how many of those teams had average or worse backcourts? Maybe two... the Spurs and Rockets (3 championships total, there). I'm not saying that the frontcourt is less important... but... I think that many of us would agree that Houston might have 3 championships if Brent Price hadn't been manning the point in 97. ------------------ Shandon Anderson rocks. The lottery sucks. Playoffs 2001. [This message has been edited by haven (edited December 08, 2000).]
You guys are all on crack. Yes, hakeem has a nice touch, and yes he is clutch, and yes he can score, and yes he can defend, however when he gets the ball all the other team has to do is double team, because Hakeem IS SLOW!!! DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT IT DOESN'T WORK?????? DIDN'T YOU SEE THAT IT DIDN'T WORK WHEN WE HAD CHARLES BARKLEY AND CLYDE DREXLER AND MARIO ELIE AND SCOTTIE FREAKING PIPPEN, THAT HE JUST CAN'T BE THE CENTER OF THE OFFENCE ANY MORE???? WHEN WE PASS HIM THE BALL, 2 OUT OF THREE TIMES THERE WILL BE EITHER A MISSED SHOT OR A TURNOVER. THAT'S JUST HOW IT IS!!! HE CAN NOT PASS OUT OF THE DOUBLE TEAM!!!! ------------------
This topic is getting so boring, I promise this is my last post about it. Fromobile, you must be the one on crack. Hakeem had a beautiful pass out of a double team to a cutting Francis for a dunk Tuesday night. To say he can't pass out of a double team is ridiculous. He does have trouble passing out of the double when no one cuts or moves to an open area, however. Who wouldn't? ------------------
F.D Kahn, I would like to see Hakeem play more of the fourth period as well. One reason I believe that is not happening though is that Hakeem refuses to adapt to Rudy T's offensive philosophy. Now, we all know Hakeem prescence, and especially defensive prescence, is invaluable to the team in crunch time; but a unhampered offensive scheme in the fourth is even more valuable. Hakeem's stubbornness to go park down in the low post destroys a productive tempo that the guards have set throughout the game. Hakeem is a competitor. Hakeem has been doing this for years. It's hard to unwire something so natural to him. Rudy T. understands this. Hakeem has yet too. ------------------
Khan: The stats I referenced were taken ONLY from the past 14 games. In those games, we are 9 and 5. The first one in that group was the win over LA on election night. That really signaled Hakeem at full strength. I've heard analysts say it on radio, tv and in news publications: more shots for Hakeem means fewer shots for Francis and that is a bad thing because this team feeds off of that kid. Gotta go with Mango on this one. You don't turn back the clock on your young players because one guy, no matter how legendary, is grumpy about not getting his touches. As for our history with Hakeem, etc, if you are a Hakeem person 1st, then I assume you would root for any team he played for and against the Rockets if he left. If that is the case, what will you do when he does finally retire? In 10 years, Hakeem will be but a distant memory and, hopefully, players like Francis and Mobley will be veteran stars. By the way, all of you who made comments about post players being needed for success in the playoffs, why so concerned? This team won't be a serious title contender for some time anyway. If they still don't have a post presence and are not contending in 5 or 6 years, then you can be worried. ------------------ Mmmmmmm. Sacrelicious.
Scarface, please read the post from Rocketbooster, that is a superb post on what the issue is. When Hakeem cooperates and fits into the offense like he did in the Suns game, playing off the guards and gets the occasional post touch to go along with it, things start to click and flow. He is a valuable commodity in the defense and rebounding departments but is not the dominant post threat he once was. When he receives the ball in the low block, the explosion and elevation on the jump hook is no longer there. The dreamshake is still somewhat effective but does not have the lift and fading action it once did. I have read posts in this forum that say Hakeem can be a 20-10 player still with the right amount of touches; anyone who thinks that is delusional. Also, why should the Rockets now suffer for what Steve Patterson, who is a complete jackass, did in the past. I absolutely despise the guy, looking at his face makes my blood boil, but Les and co. have been first class with Hakeem. They have done their best to re-pay Olajuwon for the yrs Patterson and co. underpaid him. They have given him the red carpet superstar treatment and passed up a very advantageous deal from Toronto to show EVEN MORE loyalty to him. I would absolutely love to have Jonathan Bender (the next coming of Garnett) in our frontcourt today but loyalty threw a huge wrench into those plans. As I said earlier, Hakeem needs to just shut his mouth and play. On a final point, I love it how posters in this forum think the Rockets coaching staff are morones for their offensive distribution. Do you folks even realize how much video they watch? Mike Wells was on the radio recently and they asked him how much tape they watch; he said they watched the Lakers game 12 times before they put it up. When they watch, they sit down with a pen and paper and chart the effectiveness ratio of each offensive set. Hakeem on the other hand is just going on emotion and thinking he can still dominate which is his competitive desire speaking out. The coaching staff is handling this situation well imho, Hakeem needs to zip it and play. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
Yo Moe, I'm not smoking rock. Look, you are right that Hakeem makes a sweet pas here in there in the flow of the new offense, EVERY ONCE AND A WHILE, however when you give it to him consistenlty in his favorite spot, he is soooooo slow getting it to the perimeter. If he could pass from that spot lik eCharles Barkley, he would still be one of the best in the game. He's too damn slow. Yo moe, here's some homework, go watch a game from two season's ago, when Walton was still claiming the Dream to be "the best center in the league". Go watch the passing by Dream. Go watch his speed at delivering the ball. SLOOOOOOOOOOWWWW!!! Totally inefective. I would like to conclude this by reminding you and everyone on this board that I like Hakeem better than anyone here. I've read his book almost 10 times. But we must be realistic. ------------------
FD, I have been an extremely loyal Rockets supporter through the good and bad times since I started watching the game but thats where my loyalty lies to the Rockets not any individual player. There are posters in this forum like you, ZRB, Azim, etc who put Hakeem's needs before the welfare of the team. I still remember when the deal with Toronto was being discussed, I believe it was Azim saying something like this "I dont care if those picks turn out to be Larry Bird and Magic Johnson, I will still never be a fan of the Rockets ever again if they trade Hakeem." That is some major narrow minded thinking that only looks at the present and avoids the big picture. I put winning before any players b/c I really feel very little loyalty in this, basketball is a cold, harsh business sorry to say, just read the comments Rashard Lewis still makes. Ring ceremonies and championship parades are what its all about not being tied to loyalties. Hakeem has been paid many times over for what he has done for this franchise and has been treated like a king by the city of Houston; everything he gave this city has been re-paid to him. He needs to just shut his mouth and play the game. Im all about winning rings not liking certain players. I like one team in the NBA, the Rockets, and I want them to win as many rings as they can whether its now or in the future. If they cant win them now, I want them to prepare for the best way possible in the future. Also, dont mean to ramble so much, but you should watch the tape of the Portland game again. Wallace slowed down when they put Carlos Rogers on him and employed an aggressive double team. I dont think anyone is questioning that Hakeem is the Rockets best interior defender with Cato hurt but that is a totally separate argument from him getting touches on the offensive end. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
