1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Last 5 games: Problem is Offense, not Defense

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by durvasa, Dec 20, 2006.

  1. durvasa

    durvasa Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    38,893
    Likes Received:
    16,449
    A stat we've been hearing a lot lately is that the Rockets have given up 100+ points to five straight opponents. Apparently, no JVG team has ever done that. In the Chronicle, defense seems to be what the team is stressing most.

    Quotes from Chronicle:

    Let's look at the numbers in a little more detail:

    Code:
                   [B]Opponent                 What we did against them[/B]
    Date   | Tm     OffEff DefEff |  Poss/2   OppPts  TmPts  DefEff OffEff
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    --     | LgAvg  106.2  106.2  |  89.5     --      --     99.8   105.1
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    12/9   | @WAS   111.3  111.9  |  95.9     109     114    113.6  118.8 
    12/12  | LAL    109.6  106.6  |  96.2     102     94     105.6  97.7
    12/14  | @GSW   109.9  109.5  |  102.0    109     107    106.8  104.9
    12/15  | @LAL   109.6  106.6  |  110.1    112     101    101.8  91.8
    12/17  | @LAC   105.4  108.2  |  90.7     103     108    113.5  119.0
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Total  |        109.2  108.6  |  99.0     107.0   104.8  108.0  105.8
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Wins   |        108.4  110.1  |  93.3     106.0   111.0  113.6  119.0
    Losses |        109.7  107.6  |  102.9    107.7   100.7  104.7  97.8
    
    I've included data for the past 5 games. Some parts of the chart might need explanation.
    OffEff: Offensive Efficiency, roughly points scored per 100 possessions
    DefEff: Defensive Efficiency, roughly points allowed per 100 possessions
    Poss/2: an estimate for the number of possessions in a game, equalized between teams (more specifically, average of offensive possessions and defensive possessions)

    League wide, on average teams score around 106.2 points per 100 possessions. More specifically, our last 5 opponents on average score about 109.2 pts/100poss and give up around 108.6 pts/100poss. In other words, we can say that they have been pretty good offensive teams, and not very good defensive teams. That's actually an accurate description of each of the last 5 teams we've faced.

    Furthermore, this season the Rockets are scoring about 105.1 pts/100poss and allowing only 99.8 pts/100 poss -- we're a mediocre offensive team but a very good (arguably the best) defensive team.

    Now, take a look at what we've done against the last 5 opponents. Specifically, let's focus on what we did in the wins and what we did in the losses.

    In the wins, we beat Washington and the Clippers. We gave up 113.6 pts/100poss against those two teams, which is terrible. In particular, against the Clippers we gave up far too many points considering they aren't a particularly good offensive team. But the reason we won those games is because we took advantage of their poor defense and scored a lot. We scored 119 pts/100 poss -- far eclipsing our season average and even the average those teams usually give up (110.1). In short, our offense won those games.

    Now take a look at the losses. Considering all the focus the Rockets are putting on their D, you'd think it's our defense that lost us those games. Not so. Those 3 teams (Lakers twice, and the Warriors) are all very good offensive teams, scoring close to 110 points/100poss on the season. We actually gave up only 104.7 pts/100poss against them, which is even below the league average. I wouldn't call that bad defense, and in fact it's far better defense than we played in our two wins. Sure, we gave up 107.7 ppg in these losses, but they also had a ton of possessions (combination of high pace and the double overtime game against the Lakers). No, the real problem was our offense. While we scored an amazing 119 pts/100poss in the wins, in the losses we only managed 97.8 pts/100poss. And that's against teams that aren't very good defensively (allowing 107.6 points/100poss). How bad is that 97.8 figure? Consider that the worst offensive team (by far) are the Bobcats and they score about 98.9 pts/100poss. It's bad.

    So, in my view if you want to look at the real key to our success (or lack thereof) the last week or two, look at the offense and not the defense. In particular, you'll find that we shot far better from 3 and had far less turnovers in our two wins.
     
    #1 durvasa, Dec 20, 2006
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2006
  2. macfan

    macfan Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2005
    Messages:
    3,318
    Likes Received:
    1
    Awesome analysis durvasa. However, the head coach clearly stated that the deficiencies were on the defensive end and turnovers. Turnovers are the reason opposing teams had so many possessions. If you think they did OK on defense, the head coach thinks it wasn't good enough and they can do a lot better.

    We are a defensive team and we simply gave up too many points. Luther Head and Rafer were abused.
     
    #2 macfan, Dec 20, 2006
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2006
  3. durvasa

    durvasa Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    38,893
    Likes Received:
    16,449
    I don't expect our offense to be as good as our defense. That's just not the kind of team we are. But in our losses, I thought our defense was more than decent overall against some very good offensive teams. I attribute the points we gave up more to the high number of possessions -- and possession count has little to do with defense in my view. Our defense was bad in the wins, granted, but our offense made up for it. It looks to me that the barometer for our success in these last 5 games was offensive, not defensive, efficiency.
     
  4. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2000
    Messages:
    25,432
    Likes Received:
    13,390
    How do you figure that? Good defense lowers possesion count in 2 ways. First, fewer offensive rebounds (though I'll be honest, I don't know if that counts as a second possesion, but I think it does). Second, teams typically use up more of the shot clock on each possession when defended well, leading to fewer overall possessions. Unless I'm missing something.
     
  5. JeopardE

    JeopardE Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Messages:
    7,418
    Likes Received:
    246
    Well, obviously the offense has suffered a bit without McGrady. He really makes the players around him better and he has great chemistry on the court, especially with Yao, Luther and Chuck. So I'm not surprised that our offensive efficiency is down. Coach may deny it but I think the extra effort to compensate for the loss of T-Mac on the offensive end is partially responsible at least for the increased turnovers and the decrease in offensive efficiency.

    Also, we have not done a good job of forcing games to *our* pace lately. We are not an up-tempo, high scoring team. Without T-Mac on the floor it becomes even more difficult trying to play other teams' styles and keep up with them. T-Mac usually does a very good job of slowing down the pace and setting up a half-court offense.

    So bottom line, we need T-Mac back, and the problem is solved. (Ain't that genius?). Also, did I mention how much we're losing defensively by not having T-Mac out there? Poor Luther having to guard Kobe the other night ...
     
  6. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2003
    Messages:
    8,196
    Likes Received:
    19
    Sorry for the nitpicking, but the two identical pairs of OffEff and DefEff numbers (109.6, 106.6) for the Lakers on two different dates seem to suggest they are generated from some stats obtained on a same date (most likely current date) rather than those at the time we played them. I don't know if a more accurate tabulation will necessarily result in a different conclusion of yours, but for the purpose of rigorous analysis these data may as well be revised to reflect the "real time" situation.
     
    #6 wnes, Dec 20, 2006
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2006
  7. Chronz

    Chronz Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    814
    Likes Received:
    11
    Im pretty sure offensive rebounds dont count towards extra possessions. Either way I dont like the way we played defense, regardless of how good of an offensive team they were we should be locking them down. Once we get to that level where we can lock up great offensive teams and make them play at our pace is the day we will be hoisting that larry obrien
     
  8. bigfishnyc

    bigfishnyc Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2006
    Messages:
    132
    Likes Received:
    0
    Any time you let teams come back from that far down is a failure of defense.
     
  9. durvasa

    durvasa Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    38,893
    Likes Received:
    16,449
    It doesn't ... not by the way I'm defining possession. Offensive rebounds extend a possession.

    That may or may not be true. For instance, if a team is insanely good at getting steals, they may shorten the other's team's average possession time but give up very few points per possession. That's why, ultimately, I consider points per possession a better way of evaluating offenses (or defenses).
     
  10. DonkeyMagic

    DonkeyMagic Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    21,604
    Likes Received:
    3,487
    the offense has been decent considering, they have been scoring over 100 for the most part.

    the t/os have killed them
     
  11. durvasa

    durvasa Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    38,893
    Likes Received:
    16,449
    It's all from the current date. You seem to be implying that data from points A to point B is a better indicator of a team's state at point B than data from points A to C, where B lies somewhere in between. I don't think that's necessarily true.
     
  12. durvasa

    durvasa Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    38,893
    Likes Received:
    16,449
    The offense has been very good in the wins. But in the losses, it's been terrible (and that's where the turnovers killed us, among other things). We averaged just over 100 in the losses, but there were also 102.9 possession per game in those losses. That's a very poor conversion rate -- i.e. bad offense.
     
  13. NIKEstrad

    NIKEstrad Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2000
    Messages:
    10,212
    Likes Received:
    4,171
    durvasa - You don't think a trait of a good defense is the ability to control the tempo (and through that, number of possessions)? Perhaps we recognize the issue, and go into more of a quickfire offense? Or maybe with TMac, we could slow down the offense at will, because McGrady can rise up for a jumper at any point in the shot clock and get at least a reasonable look.

    Still, your stats are interesting, and I think it shows the affect of losing the playmaker of the offense (and in some ways, may accentuate Rafer's ineffectiveness as the playmaker).

    I'm very interested to see tonight's game with a continually improving Bonzi and some rest.. I plan to watch the quality of possession and the pace of the game a little more closely, to see
     
  14. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2003
    Messages:
    8,196
    Likes Received:
    19
    Well intuitively, it sure is better. How can it not be? The question is how much it is better such that it may alter your conclusion.
     
  15. jdrock

    jdrock Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2006
    Messages:
    221
    Likes Received:
    0
    While I like your reasoning, I still believe that our defense has not been up to snuff. We are capable of holding very good offensive teams to 100 or fewer points, no matter what pace or style they play ..when our defense is clicking. Allowing teams to overcome 10-20 point deficits in the 4th quarter is a sign of poor defense.

    However, I do agree with your conclusion that our offense needs to be better as well. In other words all those losses really should have been blowouts if our offense and defense was working as it should have been.
     
  16. durvasa

    durvasa Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    38,893
    Likes Received:
    16,449
    It may or may not be. I don't think a good defense is necessarily a defense that plays slow, if that's what you're asking. If the defensive strategy is to play at a particular pace, the reason for that isn't to minimize the total number of points allowed so much as it is to minimize the points given up per possession.

    Here's the reasoning for that. In a game, both teams will roughly get the same number of possessions, regardless of the pace (possessions/minute). If a particular team's defensive goal was simply to minimize the total number of points allowed, then they might play stall-ball on the offensive end and on each possession try to force the other team to use up as much shot clock as possible. That means they don't attack the offensive boards, they don't go for steals, and they all go for the defensive board. Does that make up the best defensive team they can be? Perhaps, but not necessarily. Maybe they're small inside and that causes them to have to foul a lot. Maybe they have great athletes in the wing capable of forcing a lot of turnovers, but that strength is never utilized. Let's say that at this very slow pace, they allow only 85 ppg and 101 points per 100 possessions (which is very good and would put them amongst the league leaders). That means they need to score more than 85 ppg 101 points per 100 possessions to give themselves a good chance to win.

    Now, let's say that if the team played a little faster and utilized more traps in their defense to create turnovers and transition opportunities they could actually improve that defensive efficiency a little, while also increasing the pace. Hypothetically, they may now give up 90 points a game, but only 100 points per 100 possessions. Are they a worse defensive team? I'd say not at all. In fact, they're better because they only have to score better than 100 points per 100 possession, while before they needed to score more than 101 points per 100 possessions. Not to mention that their new defensive approach has benefits on the offensive end, because they get more transition opportunities. Essentially, their defense is now putting less stress on their offense for them to come out on top compared to before, even though they may be giving up 5 more points a game. To me, that makes them a better defensive team.
     
  17. durvasa

    durvasa Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    38,893
    Likes Received:
    16,449
    I don't have the same intuition as you.

    For example, suppose it was the very first game of the year (or very, very early), and you let the Lakers score 100 points/100poss. Suppose in the next 20 games, the Lakers score 110 points/100poss. Based on that, I would say we probably did a good job on the Lakers in that first game. But you're saying that intuitively you should only take into account games up to that point (which may only be that game), and the conclusion would be that we did an average job on them.

    More generally, how good a team is at a particular point in time is reflected not only by their performance in the near past but also their performance in the near future. And my intuition doesn't tell me to favor one any more than the other. That said, a more rigorous way of determining how good a team was on a particular date might be to take an average of their game by game performances weighted by the time period away from the date (either backwards or forwards) and also opponent strength. Some sort of regression would have to be used. It would be pretty complicated, and I doubt very much it would have a significant enough impact on those team averages to make it worth while.
     
  18. m_cable

    m_cable Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2002
    Messages:
    9,455
    Likes Received:
    73
    I don't get it. The numbers appear to back up completely the notion that our defense is the problem. Our average offensive efficiency is pretty much on par with our yearly average. But our defensive efficiency went up 9 points per 100 poss. How can you spin it any other way than that our defense was lacking.

    Also I can't help but notice that the offensive numbers are skewed by a terrible 2nd OT in the Lakers game. By my count we had 9 possessions in the 2OT and 2 points to show for it. It was a horrific 5 minute sequence, but in a larger sample that period would even itself out. But in this situation they make the numbers look a lot worse.

    For better or worse this is a team built on defense. We need to shut teams down in order to win. Even when we had Mcgrady, we were vulnerable to slumps and scoring droughts. And without T-mac we need to rely on our defense that much more, not expect our offense to play even better. That's not a realistic expectation.
     
  19. durvasa

    durvasa Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    38,893
    Likes Received:
    16,449
    If you look at the total for all the games, yes. As I said, we played terrible defense in the wins, but made up for it with very good offense.

    But if you focus on the losses, you'll find that our defense was pretty good (considering how good the other teams were offensively), while the offense just downright stunk (even though the other teams aren't good defensively).

    In other words, we won when our offense was really good, and we lost when our offense was terrible. We won when our defense stunk, and we lost when our defense was decent. Based on that, wouldn't you conclude that its our offense, not the defense, that we should be more focused on?


    In a larger sample it might even itself out (or maybe not, our team was dead tired and totally out of sorts in that second overtime). But since it's only a 5 minute period, which amounts to only 9 possessions, that in itself doesn't skew the final results any more than it should to reflect how terrible we were offensively at the end of the game.

    I'd say that our defense in the losses was just fine. We gave up a lot of points because of the high pace, which was in large part due to our terrible ballhandling and high number of turnovers. That's more of an offensive problem than defensive problem, and its something that can largely be attributed to not having McGrady.
     
  20. JeopardE

    JeopardE Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Messages:
    7,418
    Likes Received:
    246
    I think the thing is, from a statistical purist's point of view, pace should have nothing to do with how good a team is defensively. And even with that in mind, the Rockets still have been the best defensive team in the league by the numbers. But in a practical sense, you can't discount the game pace altogether. Slowing down the game pace gives us a number of advantages. For example, it takes the other team out of their element -- athletic, high scoring teams like the Warriors, Wizards and Suns thrive offensively on a fast break. They're at their best when they're getting shots early in the shot clock and scoring breakaway layups. When you deprive the other team of that, it disrupts their rhythm, and they end up being forced to create good shots in the halfcourt which is more difficult -- especially against a team like the Rockets. (This is why the Spurs are the nemesis of the Suns -- that is the one team in this league that has figured out how to take the Suns out of their game completely).

    Another thing worth considering is that the more points an opposing player is able to put into the hoop, the greater his confidence rises. By keeping those field goals few and far between, you get them frustrated offensively. The "rhythm" factor is something that is unfairly discarded when approaching this from a pure statistical viewpoint. Put it this way -- we cannot be at our best defensively when we're racing up and down the court against a high octane offense like GS. That's just not going to be 100% efficient because that's not how this team was constructed.

    Don't get me wrong -- there's a reason why opponent ppg isn't the best indicator of how good a defense is. But your game pace has a lot to do with your team's personality, and your team just can't play its best when it is playing out of its element.
     

Share This Page