Lakers win again!!! Shaq is still not better than Hakeem though

Shaq scored about 28-29 ppg in that same series... and it was against... Olajuwon. Shaq fought Hakeem to a basic draw in that series. Shaq has improved.

 

Screw the stats, it was not at all a draw. Hakeem was the one hitting the BIG shots in that series late in the games (like the game winning tipin). Anyone who watched that series knows Hakeem outplayed Shaq, including O'Neal himself.

Also, I disagree that Shaq has improved. The quality of Centers in today's NBA is pure crap, which greatly exaggerates his dominance. Shaq doesn't even have to worry about Defense because no Center in the NBA can score. The 2nd best Center in today's NBA is Oliwakandi for pete's sake. Shaq is seriously overweight right now and if he had to face a Center with Hakeem or D Rob's quickness, he'd get exploited and it's alot harder to establish position against them than stiffs like McCullough and Aaron Williams as well.

Having the best backcourt player to set you up for easy dunk opportunities doesn't hurt either and is something Hakeem never had.

 

Shaq put up his best numbers in his first 2 years, arguably, back when Dream, Ewing, Vlade, Zo, D Rob were all factors in the league.

Shaq is far more skilled now, but when he came out of college, he played like a giant version of Mcdyess

30 pts 13 boards 3 blks per?

who does that now?

 

You disagree that Shaq has improved?


Right.

 

This would not happen if Shaq had not improved. Five nets, count em, five.

 

How the hell would Hakeem defend Shaq Shaq would and has run Hakeem over. Heck, Shaq at 22 played Hakeem at 32 to a standstill. I hate Shaq, but until the rules change, he is gonna be dominant. Wilt/Russell/Kaeem/Shaq/Hakeem. That's he order, unfortunately.

 

I'm saying no one could stop Shaq then (Dream did well) and no one can stop Shaq now (Vlade did well)

difference being, now he knows what it takes to win (and upgraded to Kobe vs Penny) instead of putting up monster stats

 

What the hell does that picture prove? Wow, Shaq torched a big white stiff in McCullough and dunked on 5 scrubs from the Least. Stop the presses.

where was this dominance when he was getting schooled by hakeem in 95, played to a standstill by Duncan and Robinson in the playoffs and carried to victories over the Spurs by Kobe Bryant?. Everytime he faces a GREAT big man in the playoffs, he is effectively contained. When he faces stiffs like 40 year old Smits or McCullough he scores 40 a game and gets proclaimed the "Greatest Center Ever". PLEASE. If Hakeem or Kareem were in their primes now facing a different stiff everynight, there stats would be even sicker and would dominate just as much if not more.

Why did Shaq become so much 'healthier' when he faced McCullough and Williams and Collins then when he was putting up 18 ppg and 45% FG against duncan and drob in round 2 and getting carried by Kobe every 4th quarter?

If someone doesnt acknowledge that the past 5 years (which coincide with the time period where Shaq became the "Greatest Center Ever") isnt by far the weakest era of Centers in NBA history, they are just not astute basketball fans. Granted, it's not Shaq's fault, but this is something that must be considered in evaluating his dominance.

 

I agree that Shaq has improved from the days when he played in Orlando. Did Hakeem "school" O'Neal in 1995? I doubt it. Did he outplay O'Neal? Of course!

I still believe Hakeem is a better center, based on the competition that he faced. O'Neal no doubt is one of the best centers of all time, but the competition nowadays makes it a debatable.

 

I wonder how a 22-year old Olajuwon would have fared against a 32 or whatever year old Shaq...

It's really ludicrous that some people put so much damn stock into the 95 series.

It works with DRob and Olajuwon, since they were both in their primes. But Shaq, was half the player back then than he is now. Kind of like how Olajuwon was twice the player in his prime, than from when he was 22.

Apples and oranges.

The fact that Shaq was able to play Olajuwon pretty well (at least better than DRob), at such an early age, could be further proof that Shaq is the best of all-time.

 

What defines a "best-all-around" center?

This is definately not Shaq! You have to know how to hit your inside shots and your outside shots. You have to know how to hit your freethrows consistantly. You have to know how to pass the ball. You have to know how to play smart.

Is this Shaq? NO!

There is one word for Shaq: Dominant

What if a 8ft center at 350lbs could play decent ball? He would be close to unstoppable. Yes, there are players like Shaq out there who suck. Shaq IS a damn good ball player, no doubt about it. The best, far from it.

Take the 95 Hakeem vs 02 Shaq ... Hakeem is almost 2/3 of his size. Hakeem was FIT! I give Shaq another five years before his body gives out on him ...

 

Shaq totally dominates and has done so since his rookie year. His longevity will determine if he is the greatest center of all time. His ability cetainly says he is among the best.
Yes Dream played better than him in that series, but already when most NBA experts mention the greatest centers of all-time they include Wilt, Russell, Kareem and Shaq and not Dream. It's not a slight to Dream but Shaq is a dominant player every night.

 

Let me repeat for Cato=Bum : Shaq averaged 28-29 ppg in that '95 series against... Olajuwon. He must be one of the bum-of-a-centers you're referring to? Also, check out Olajuwon's FG% in that series... Check out Shaq's rebounds per game, points per game, and FG% in that series, then come back here and tell me how Shaq was "contained" as you put it.

If you're going to deny Shaq's injuries were bothering him (as if you'd really know), then there's no argument. Your opinions are just too jaded in favor of Mr. Olajuwon.

... and if you don't acknowledge that in his early years he was manhandling or fighting to a draw centers like Robinson, Olajuwon, and Ewing, then you're only showing yourself to be biased. You don't need to be "astute" to recognize this - just have good vision and an open mind.

... today's Shaq is bigger and badder, aaaand he's starting to hit FT's. Uh oh..

 

Maybe if you throw out defense, where Hakeem was guarding 5 Magic, and Shaq was guarding, well, no one.

O'Neal has been surrounded by better talent his entire career than Hakeem ever was.....that's why he now has more rings.

 

Another 5 years, huh? That would make Shaq about 35-36. That's about when Hakeem started going downhill. Shaq's minutes in the Finals games : 40, 41, 42, 43.

In all seriousness, I can agree with you that Shaq's body may start giving out on him due to his sheer size, but if somebody's going to average 40+ minutes for me, I can't honestly say he's been severely affected by it yet. We'll see in 5 years; you may be right. By then Shaq may have gotten bored winning championships and retired, though.

 

DoD, if you want to use stats to show that Shaq played Hakeem to a "standstill", we can also use stats to show that Shaq isn't any better now than he was then -- in fact, he's not as good. You can't have it both ways.

 

Hakeem was guarding 5 Magic players? Wow, I knew he was agile, but damn, he could move if he could guard 5 players and not get called for playing a zone!

These Olajuwon-Shaq debates never get anywhere, do they? I swear everybody will brush Shaq aside and say Olajuwon was the greatest thing since Wilt. I will readily admit that I absolutely was and am still pissed that Olajuwon left Houston, but I can still respect the guy for what he's done and what he's given this city. He was the greatest center of the 80's bar none, and probably the greatest since the 70's (tough choice between Hakeem and Kareem). However, I can also say that Shaq is the most dominant offensive force to ever step on the court since Wilt. Hakeem couldn't stop him, and I don't care what stage of their respective careers we're talking about. Here are quotes from the Houston Chronicle. It's a Michael Murphy article from 1999. I edited out some of the Murphy commentary. Straight from Hakeem's mouth :

"The thing with Shaq is that even though I know what he is going to do, I still cannot stop him," said Olajuwon, who finished with 18 points and 10 rebounds Saturday. "I know when he is shooting that shot (the turnaround in the lane), I can't jump because I'm bracing myself (against O'Neal's body) just to hold him (away from the basket). So when he shoots, I can only hope that he misses. I've not experienced that against any other player -- until now."

"It was a different style of basketball back then," Olajuwon said. "We had different teams, different styles. When you look at it now, you can see the maturity and the experience he has developed. He has more polish, and he is passing the ball better. And he's stronger and bigger."

"There are a lot of areas where he can improve, where he can become a unique big man in the history of the game," Olajuwon said. "He can get (to the point) where nobody of that size could do that many things. He creates so many different problems.

"My game is fakes and agility, but he has all these same things, plus size. I have to give him credit, and I must wish him well to continue to develop to be a better player."

So, I'm going to leave you with my opinions on this and let you guys continue the verbal battles. Hakeem was a far more skilled player than O'Neal. He was more fun to watch. Shaq is more unstoppable than Hakeem. Hakeem was a better defensive player. Neither could stop the other - in the end that's all that matters. Today's Shaq is more unstoppable than the Shaq that Hakeem faced in '95. Today's Shaq is a better passer and makes better decisions on the court than the Shaq of '95. Today's Shaq would give Hakeem fits. The Hakeem of '95 would still give Shaq fits.

Oh, and before I go, yes, I know most of your responses to the Hakeem quote above will be, "but, but, he's just showing respect". Save it. I've heard it all... repeatedly... and I'm still not buying it.

Carry on!

 

"Hakeem is the greatest center to ever play." --Shaquille O'Neal

 

Know whats funny? I was looking at old pics yesterday...when Shaq came into the league he was skinny--- almost slender. His biggest advantage was his agility, and necessarily his strength. Thats why I can't understand people who say he's been dislodging post defenders all his career. He just became massive in the last couple of years. Good hope for Yao there. Get the footwork and all that mojo down now, and then when he fleshes out it will stay with him.

hmmmm....



Just having fun fellas...