Hey everyone. First of all I want to say to Clutch: this new format looks amazing and I think you (or whomever is responsible) should be comended. Just one more great thing about CC.net. Secondly, I want to offer my condolances to all you fans out there that are suffering like I am, mourning the loss of the city's first and only champion. My one question is this... do the Rockets have any realistic shot at getting Raef Lafrentz? I have heard that name come up a million times over the last few weeks in here, and I think he would be great. I was comparing his and Jackson's numbers from last year and although he's got some game and he's young, he's a TERRIBLE shot blocker (.56 bpg) whereas Lafrentz is rejecting at the 7th best frequency in the game (2.64 bpg). Obviously, Jackson would be easier to attain since he's a free agent, but if we have any shot at Raef, I think we should go for it. Does anyone have any thoughts/insight into this?? Thanks... good day to all...
Geez.... it's like I didn't wear deoderant or something. People are avoiding my thread like it's the plague. Maybe it's my subtle refference to Planet of the Apes in my signature. Please... someone tell me if the Rockets are truly interested in Lafrentz and if so, are the "rich, creamy nougats" interested in trading him and cap filler for ANYTHING we have? (Collier, Cato, Williams, S & T for Shandon)??????
A deal for Lafrentz was all but done not too long ago and now a few fans cling to the possibility. Unless Houston somehow gets Clark from the Raptors there just won't be any players to trade to Denver. They may like Anderson at a fair price, Posey played horribly last year but there would have to be something else of substance thrown in. Denver may be content with Willis at the starting center for the right price but Houston just doesnt have the means unless they were to trade Griffen.
here we go again... you want raef, but offer absolutely nothing! its all garbage (SA is ok but we lose our center for a guy we have 3 of pretty much). you want raef, offer something fair! for once! ziggy; you think if you get clark, thatll increase your chances of getting raef? we had clark and traded him already. why would we trade raef to get him back? and no willis isnt enough for us. we need more size, not less.
Your Nuggets know Clark was good, he can rebound better than Lafrentz. Clark alone would not be enough but the addition of Anderson at fair money and possibly draft picks might do the trick. Its still unlikely. Come to think of it, if we took Wahad off your hands Im sure they would consider.
no and ill tell you why. 1 - we had clark and theres no way in hell hed resign with us after trading him 2 - it would leave us even smaller! willis at center with clark at backup. wed get killed by the bigger teams. 3 - the addition of kiki could potentially help out wahad enough that he can be somewhat productive for us again. 4 - we have NO USE for anderson. we already have posey, lenard, wahad, mccloud, bowen and cheaney. nve might play some 2 as well. you have to 'consider' more factors than just if the salaries match and ppg's.
<b>Nugsfan</b>, Do the Rockets have anything they would trade that might appeal to the Nuggets in a trade for LaFrentz, such as Thomas, Langhi, Collier, draft picks. exception for cap space, etc? Obviously, we aren't going to let go of Francis, Mobely, Griffin, Taylor, or Norris.
thomas - maybe a little, since hes a decent big man with, what i assume is, a decent contract langhi/collier ; no way picks ; unless you got some good ones, then no. issel trades them way, remember? hes not a big fan of them i suppose. i mean your like 'we wont give any of our players who are any good at all' and then you want one of our best players. does that seem right? no. it doesnt. be fair!
I just really love how nugzfan tells us we have nothing of trade value and conveniently ignores the fact that the Nuggets already have McDyess, NVE, AJ, Tariq, & McCloud on the books for nearly $36M next summer when Raef is a FA. If LaFrentz and Issel get crossways again this season, the Rockets may not have to trade anything - they have more cap$ next year than Denver does. Denver's only hope is that the Rocket's are foolish enough to overpay Marc Jackson and for multiple years. That will ice LaFrentz from becoming a Rocket.
Thanks for being rational w/ us Nugzfan... you'll also have to be patient though. Some people keep saying "well, uhhhhh... I heard Issel and LaFrentz don't get along, dayyyyuuhhhh, LaFrentz is FREE!!! fREE LAfRenTZ!". Uhhhh.... you have to give to get. If the Rockets want LaFrentz at all this year, they're going to have to do something that people on the board don't want them to do. The Rockets haves are: a) cap space b) Really good young players c) mediocre players (Collier, KT, Langhi) d) Crappy players e) Walt's expiring contract. Unless the Rockets are going to change their stance on trading Walt, they'd either have to trade one of their really good young players (not going to happen) or somehow find Issel in a drunk moment so that he'll take a mediocre or crappy player (not going to happen). What are the Rockets' strengths? Cap space. If the Rockets are going to get LaFrentz, they have to take back a crappy overpaid player like Wahad to get LaFrentz. i.e. Wahad + LaFrentz for Shandon + cap space + kt + ? This probably still might not get it done. BTW, just b/c this is undesirable (from the rockets side) and the fact that LaFrentz is a FA next year doesn't get you any closer to getting LaFrentz this year. You're just going to get told in your fantasy GM world's "okay, wait till next year".
UH...i never said that! geez, rocket fans say we want raef BUT we wont trade francis OR mobley OR taylor OR griffin. and you expect to have value left? you just said anyone with value is untradeable! and its not like you want calbert cheaney. if you did, well then, anderson, thomas, etc would then have value. your asking for raef. haha...ive lafrentz from becoming a rocket. you guys are dreaming and very ignorant! as if raef has said he wants to even be a rocket! amazing!! lol.
That's right, you didn't. And that proves my point which is the mechanics of any trade is not purely foundated on value for value. How "fair" was Cliff Robinson for Jud Buechler and John Wallace? Player value it wasn't, but the Suns need to address the implications of the Luxury Tax. Was Olajuwon worth more than draft picks? Obviously, but that was a business decision not based on "value for value". I will spell it out more slowly this time. The dynamics of keeping LaFrentz on the Nuggets is not entirely a function of value. IMHO, value for value is heavily impacted by: 1) This is Raef's final season under contract 2) The Nuggets have yet to play a single minute of playoff ball during LaFrentz's 3 preceeding years with Denver 3) Most of the WC teams have made some movements. Denver has stood pat. Likely case...no playoffs this year either. 4) There is welll established historical precedent that Issel and LaFrentz are not the greatest of friends. 5) Kiki Vandeweghe aside, Abdul-Wahad's contract is a cap killer which the Nuggets would love to get rid of. 6) The capability of a potential trading partner to facilitate a deal. (The Rockets have cap space and most other teams do not). 7) McDyess has played the 5 at times including when LaFrentz has been in Issel's doghouse. Some points to ponder until the trading deadline in February. Are you trying to say that LaFrentz is of equal value for Francis or Mobley? I think not. Mo Taylor? Hmmm, Cato & Mo or Raef & KT/Griffin....the Nuggets sign Raef to an extension and it's a subject for discussion. This would be tough to do as "loyalty" has been a commom theme lately for the Rockets and Mo has patiently waited the Olajuwon thing out. Griffin for LaFrentz......like I said earlier, the trade deadline is in February. Dreaming? Probably. Ignorant? No, that domain is only populated by those who totally blind themselves to the unusual possibilities which routinely occur in sports trades....if the shoe fits, wear it? True, LaFrentz has never mentioned the Rockets (or to my knowledge, any other team including the Nuggets). His personal style is not to "grandstand" ala Chris Webber. Just another reason he would be a perfect fit for the Rocks. I have never posted a lopsided trade for LaFrentz (Walt or KT or Cato + picks or SA + KT even up). I have tried to examine what is possible given the dynamics of the NBA and the Nuggets. By avoiding these dynamics, you have short-sighted to only what is probably and overlooked what is possible. What is "probable" has been known to exceed personal expectations (ie...Olajuwon in a uni other than Houston's).
Gater: Great stuff. You said it all and you said it well. Nugzfan seems to be ignoring the fact that Issel and Lafrentz may not want each other. That can speed things along surely and make the unlikely possible.
RR, even if the Issel and Raef don't get along, he could bring in some first or second tier players from most teams. Have you seen Portland's roster? They could offer Dale Davis, Klump, Wells, Barkley, etc. The only way we get Raef in a trade is to give up Mo Taylor or Cuttino, which is not a possibility. Our best bet is to go the FA route with Raef. No need to panic about the center position. Let's see how it goes for the first month of the season, and if we need to, we can pick up a CBA scrub.
http://espn.go.com/nba/s/2001/0731/1233336.html here's some intersting stuff taken from espn's summer spotlight on the nuggets, looks like raef's value around the league may not be perceived as high as our dear nugzfan seems to think: Lafrentz like Van Exel, is a talented player, but he's not really a center, which is where he has to play LaFrentz is looking at another year of banging with bigger boys, which takes a toll on anyone, especially one who is under 7-feet tall and likes to shoot threes more than post up. So we ask you this question about the Nuggets: Would you keep Van Exel and LaFrentz or replace them with better fits at point guard and center? Now, those lines left me wondering a couple of issues myself. I haven't seen LaFrentz play at all, and his box score looks nice, specially his blk per game, but, the way espn talks about him, he seems soft as they come. We already are somewhat "soft" up front with Mo, provided he is resigned, god willing, so i have to ask if LaFrentz REALLY is the perfect center for us? I know he is able to draw opposing centers away from the basket with his range, but is he willing to bang down low and do the dirty work we sorely lack? Who can give me a scouting report on the guy? If what espn says is correct (like they are the most reliable source around, sigh), he doesnt sound like someone we should be drooling for. Better work on a Brad Miller/Marc Jackson combo and build the 5 through the draft. Of course, i have heard that Jackson is unwilling to mix it up in the post too... I wish Mutumbo could be ours... THAT is the kind of guy we need!
Thanos: They're doing Lafrentz a disservice, there. Yeah, he's probably not suited to stop Shaq or Mourning. But who would rather have: a 270 lb slug who can play slightly better defense against Shaq, or someone like Raef who can score (he can play the post a little) and is more effective against everyone else? My vote's with Raef. If you can't get a Shaq, no use trying to get a "prototypical" center that sucks instead of a talented but smaller guy. Besides, he can[/b[ effectively stretch the defense. Lafrentz shot 37% from 3 pt land last year. That's pretty good even for a *guard*. And if he can pull guys like Shaq out at all, then maybe he's doing some of his "defense" out there. Oh, and Marc Jackson's defense is worse than Lafrentz... add that to the fact that Lafrentz is Top 10 in blocked shots, and Marc Jackson averages .5 a game... and well, you get the picture.
haven, i'm sure we've butted heads on particular issues before, but man g*ddamnit you just hit the nail on the screws!!! everyone wants to fight fire with fire. well there are only so many matches to go around! fight fire with water!
Haven is exactly right on LaFrentz.....he is no defensive stopper, but he multiples better than Jackson on D, especially with regard to overall team D. I would exhaust ALL avenues of getting LaFrentz b4 I went after Jackson. NugzFan does make some valid points abt our roster not really having any players that THEY could use right now, but as Popeye as alluded to in other threads, a third team involved could very plausibly facillitate a deal to put LaFrentz in PJ's.
Denver and Houston 1 CD and RT¡¦s eye is on Raef LaFrentz. Jackson is in the equation because of his available and his accessibility. That is, he is not only on hand, but it is very possible for the Rockets to retrieve him. 2 It will probably take a third party to get a deal done for Raef LaFrentz. 3 It would be less trouble and less costly to acquire Jackson, but he will not be as productive for us at our present roster depth as Raef. 4 CD/RT view Cato as more important now than prior to Hakeem¡¦s trade. He actually is the key. Cato will likely not be included in any deal unless certain criteria are met. 5 Having Jason Collier and Raef Lafrentz on the same roster doesn¡¦t seem logical. Collier and LaFrentz are as similar as a they are dissimilar. Both have or are developing middle and/or long range games. Both have decent legs for big guys. But Jason Collier is bigger and beefier and is not afraid to bang underneath. Raef hasn¡¦t needed to bang that much, as Denver/Issel sees it¡¦s game as more of a finesse-type. Raef may have some bang to his body, but hasn¡¦t shown it consistently. But, Raef is farther along in his development. Maybe a broader repertoire than Jason. But all this being said ¡K The Rockets probably could not afford the luxury of having both on the roster at the same time, due to these similarities. The depth chart for big men must include varying responsibilities, not similarities. 6 Denver wants WahWah most certainly included in any deal and that may be a deal breaker right there. Rockets may want Kevin Willis included and that may be a deal breaker also. Kevin Willis???????? Yeah, Kevin Willis. Kevin Willis added to the mix may be more of a prudent Rocket move than any other Denver player. He fills a depth need if we lose Cato , is familiar with the Rockets, on the tail end of a contract, would help with the muscle end of things. I take it back, he is not a deal breaker but he would be a strong consideration. 7 But needless to say if Raef LaFrentz was ever to come to Houston, it would involve some heavy multi-level deals ¡K.. and that is what makes it less of a possibility than other more accessible alternaties (Jackson). Cato and the Deal Watch for Cato. Cato¡¦s move would almost assuredly trigger the suspicion of an underlying deal with Denver. That is, if Cato were moved for whatever reason (Cato = Chicago for instance), that would have to mean the Rockets have found a way to acquire both Raef and Kevin Willis (or a reasonably tough experienced facsimile). And, that would also mean they have satisfied Denver¡¦s desire to unload Wah Wah¡¦s contract. I have several speculative ideas on how that could be done, but the most obvious possibility would be to make Marc Jackson a Denver Nugget somehow. The careful, calculated use of the Houston trade exception could do that. „h * Cato¡¦s affinity for staying low this summer, amid all the Hakeem talk, trade speculation and maybe more personally, the negative stuff generated towards him is downright uncanny. There may be another rationale. Chicago has had some interest in Cato in the past. The trade of Oakley to Chicago may even have made a Cato to Chicago scenario more probable simply by virtue of the fact that Oak and Cato up front would be a formidable front. Why Oak? It is arguable that Cato is not really under-talented just under-motivated. Oak could motivate an 800 lb Gorilla to take up needlepoint! „h Cato leaving for Chicago would mean we have filled some holes through agreement. It would be suicide otherwise. Without Cato manning the middle, even in his stupored, dumbfounded, gawking way ¡K.. the Rockets would be ripe for plucking by anyone. If he went, we would have to have a replacement waiting. Enter Kevin Willis or a fierce younger clone of him. „h It is conceivable that a Denver deal could be made for Raef (for all the reason mentioned in prior posts ¡K. Conflict, final year contract, Denevr finally NEEDING to do SOMETHING, etc¡K), but it will take roster sacrifice. As Nug pointed out ¡K. Shandon Anderson (if that is even possible through Fegan) and Collier with a couple of picks thrown in will not get it done. But who knows .... I-Man may like the idea of Collier with no guarantee after this season, may like unloading WahWah, may like the idea of adding someone else (we have to have "something" from the Cato-Wherever (Chicago?) deal to pawn off on someone), may like having Walts contract freeing up even more space next year. It could come down to having Denver unload a couple and a deal that will simply give them a viable chance at acquiring Jackson.
