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Kobe's ability as a "closer" needs to be called out

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by TheGreat, Jun 15, 2010.

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  1. TheGreat

    TheGreat Member

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    This was from a Realgm poster....


    I always hear this term..."closer". It is a vague label and I'm not really sure how we evaluate what a "closer" actually is. During the course of his career, Kobe has done well down the stretch. Of course he does well in quarters 1-3 as well so it only makes sense that he does well in the 4th. If you look at recent history, Kobe is up there with the likes of Carmelo, Dirk, LeBron, etc in terms of crunch-time play. Sometimes he performs better, sometimes he doesn't. I never quite understood why Kobe is the one that is given exclusive rights to the term "closer"...but that is besides the point.

    In the 4th quarters so far against Boston, Kobe has been dreadful. I am talking about "I am hurting my team with the way I am playing in the 4th" type of dreadful.

    9-33 in the 4th quarter
    27%
    7.4 points per 4th quarter

    Yikes.

    Now let's look at Kobe's 4th quarter performances in the 2009 NBA Finals against a weaker Orlando team.

    13-40 in the 4th quarter (plus overtime)
    32.5%
    7.8 points in the 4th quarter (plus overtime)

    Now to be fair to Kobe, only 3 of those 5 games were close entering the 4th quarter. Here is Kobe's performance in those 3 games, 2 of which went to OT...

    9-26
    34.6%
    8.7 points in the 4th quarter (plus 2 overtimes)

    I didn't see a list of Kobe's 4th quarter performances against Boston in 2008 but I remember him doing well in a few of the games while he struggled in a few others. So what does this tell us? Well it just confirms that Kobe's title as the world's ultimate closer might not fit.

    Now this isn't to say that Kobe isn't damn good down the stretch at times because he is. I just don't see the big difference between Kobe in the 4th and Kobe in the 1st-3rd throughout the course of his career and if Kobe did have this machine-like ability to be a closer, wouldn't he have flipped the switch at some point during the last 2/3 NBA Finals?
     
    #1 TheGreat, Jun 15, 2010
  2. sammy

    sammy Member

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    Heavy minutes leads to no legs on his jumpers.
     
    #2 sammy, Jun 15, 2010
  3. david_rocket

    david_rocket Member

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    I dont like Kobe, but maybe he is called clutch or a closer, because the only basket he makes in the 4th quarter, its the game-winning basket.

    But yes Kobe is been awful this series in the 4th quarter.
    He scored a lot in the 3rd quarter of game 5, but he was out of gas in the 4th.
     
    #3 david_rocket, Jun 15, 2010
  4. treyk3

    treyk3 Member

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    I'd take Kobe over anyone in the league to close a game.
     
    #4 treyk3, Jun 15, 2010
  5. Asian Sensation

    Asian Sensation Member

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    Tmac experienced the same type of fatigue/running out of gas problems in the playoffs when he played for us. They both also experienced their role players standing around watching and doing jack **** for the most part. Worst of all their big men I'm talking about you Yao and Gasol struggling for the most part as well.

    The difference is Tmac tried to get his teammates involved except the majority of them were sorry and couldn't contribute.

    Kobe on the other hand tries to take over the game even though his teammates are better and more competent.

    Kobe looks like Kobe from 3-4 years ago when he had to go superhero and try to take over the game when the Lakers faced the Suns. This year he really doesn't/shouldn't have to but Gasol, Bynum, Odom and Artest are playing like garbage.
     
    #5 Asian Sensation, Jun 15, 2010
  6. Mr. Space City

    Mr. Space City Member

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    if it wasn't for derek fisher's 4th quarter in game 3 this series would be over by now.
     
    #6 Mr. Space City, Jun 15, 2010
  7. RV6

    RV6 Member

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    he makes them when it counts...that's why. It doesnt have to be a high percentage, it can just be the shot that get's them a safe lead or the shot that gives them the lead. He hits timely shots more than anyone else. His percetnages are also misleading because he takes a lot of bail out shots for the team.
     
    #7 RV6, Jun 15, 2010
  8. Moonscope

    Moonscope Member

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    I recall seeing a stat for LBJ where his 3pt % was ALOT higher in the 4th quarter than the other 3 quarters. Does that attribute to him being a good closer?
     
    #8 Moonscope, Jun 15, 2010
  9. t_mac1

    t_mac1 Member

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    his teammates won him game 3 when he was mediocre. tmac's teammates have never won him a playoff game when he was mediocre in the playoffs.

    but gasol isn't playing like garbage. he's just not getting enough shots. 19 points on 12 shots a game? 12 shots? while kobe in game 3 could jack up 29 shots when he made like 30% of his shots?

    kobe really needs to get his big men involved, esp. gasol.
     
    #9 t_mac1, Jun 15, 2010
  10. clippy

    clippy Member

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    Didn't the 4th quarters of games 4 and 5 count?

    Every performance metric shows that Kobe sucks in the clutch-- 4th quarter, final minutes, final minutes <> 5 pts, and so forth. He has just been so hyped by the media as a clutch performer that it is ingrained in the memories of casual fans. Yes, he has hit a few spectacular game winners, but how many has he missed? Far more.
     
    #10 clippy, Jun 15, 2010
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  11. Tom Bombadillo

    Tom Bombadillo Member

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    It is truly mind boggling how little Pau Gas hole gets the ball...
     
    #11 Tom Bombadillo, Jun 15, 2010
  12. eMat

    eMat Member

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    And risk losing the Finals MVP? No way.
     
    #12 eMat, Jun 15, 2010
  13. t_mac1

    t_mac1 Member

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    i think that matters to him a little bit it appears. it's unfathomable how the lakers do not take advantage of their big men.
     
    #13 t_mac1, Jun 15, 2010
  14. VBG

    VBG Member

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    I dunno. A lot of his 4th quarter shots are desperation 3s or at the end of the shot clock.
     
    #14 VBG, Jun 15, 2010
  15. MemphisX

    MemphisX Member

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    corrected
     
    #15 MemphisX, Jun 15, 2010
  16. desihooper

    desihooper Member
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    JVG and now Tom Thibodeau have designed their defenses like this for years. OK, so Kobe goes off for 40, but if the rest of the team is not involved in the flow of the offense, at some point, Kobe (or MJ or whomever) is going to get cold/contained, and by then no one is ready/willing/able to step up. When you play a defense that is geared to slowing down a volume shooter/scorer, it's never that guy that beats you. It's always when someone else contributes an unexpected 15-20 points that you lose the game.
     
    #16 desihooper, Jun 15, 2010
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  17. Tom Bombadillo

    Tom Bombadillo Member

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    Corrected, If you are a bitter Memphis fan... :grin:
     
    #17 Tom Bombadillo, Jun 15, 2010
  18. ItsMyFault

    ItsMyFault Member

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    You could say the same thing about big baby in game 4. If's don't get anywhere....
     
    #18 ItsMyFault, Jun 15, 2010
  19. BaMcMing

    BaMcMing Member

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    Doc said it best in the Post Game after game 5, (paraphrasing) "There may be bigger, better athlete's in the game today, but there is no better shot maker than Kobe."

    The term 'closer' should be interchangeable with "shot maker" IMO. At the end of games, good defensive teams will always adjust to take away the opposing teams most effective option.

    Some of the more effective end of game options = Kobe, Carmelo, Bron, Yao, etc.

    Kobe had what, 6 game winners this year? Would you also say that MJ's abilities as a closer need to be called out? ;)
     
    #19 BaMcMing, Jun 15, 2010
  20. Al Calavicci

    Al Calavicci Contributing Member

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    lol you're still here

    Don't you ever get tired about being wrong about EVERYTHING?
     
    #20 Al Calavicci, Jun 15, 2010
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