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Kobe vs Wade in The Finals

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by Icehouse, Jul 19, 2011.

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  1. DudeWah

    DudeWah Member

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    The only team Wade has faced in the finals is the Mavs.

    Seriously...the Mavs.

    Do you remember 2006? I'm pretty sure the Suns and Mavs of that era didn't even realize defense was a part of playing basketball. Compare that to teams like the pistons, sixers, nets, and celtics. It's not even close who faced the tougher defenses.

    I'll give you the fact that the Mavs were better this past year defensively. But then again, that also explains why the Heat lost. So, Kobe's 5 out of 7 success rate against MUCH better defenses kind of outweighs Wade's 50% ratio against inferior defenses.

    As a side note, if you want bring up teams that each player faced in the semifinals (although that is irrelevant to the "finals" issue at hand) do remember that Kobe had to face teams like the Spurs (top 2 defense most years) to come out of the west.
     
  2. Yao Ming's foot

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    League average defensive rating

    99 102.2
    00 104.1
    01 103.0
    02 104.5
    03 103.6
    04 102.9

    vs

    91 107.9
    92 108.2
    93 108.0
    94 106.3
    95 108.3
    96 107.6
    97 106.7
    98 105.0


    Your ignorance is amusing
     
  3. Icehouse

    Icehouse Member

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    I don't recall anyone saying the Mavs were world beaters defensively. But Wade has been very good against those same teams that were world beaters defensively, so I think he would be ok if he were to say meet them in the Finals and not the ECF's.

    Kobe hasn't playing like Wade in any of those 7 trips, no matter the opponent. The success rate also has a lot to do with help, right?

    I'm not the one arguing that a player only had his success because he was facing easy competition.
     
  4. Icehouse

    Icehouse Member

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    Yes, the 90's was such a great offensive era that the league had to implement rules to boost scoring and speed the game up. Yes, your ignorance is amusing.

     
  5. Yao Ming's foot

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    Unrelated articles trump cold hard facts.

    LOL
     
  6. greenhippos

    greenhippos Member

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    I never argued that the Pistons of 2004-06 were deadbeats when it came to defense. But the numbers don't lie, 04>>>>06. Kobe went up against that 04 team in the finals.
     
  7. Icehouse

    Icehouse Member

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    Right...cold hard facts of an estimated metric. You should probably look uo the word fact in the dictionary.

    Hmm, let's see what other cold hard basketball facts/estimates say. How about PER? I guess LeBron is the 2nd best player in league history, and David Robinson is better than Hakeem:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

    Or since you love defensive rating, I guess Tim Duncan and David Robinson were both better defenders than Hakeem:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career.html

    What about offensive rating, where Reggie Miller is better than Jordan:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/off_rtg_career.html

    Oh my, how can Hakeem be the all-time shot block leader when he isn't even in the top 10 in block %:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/blk_pct_career.html

    LOL at facts.
     
  8. Icehouse

    Icehouse Member

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    And that's why I'm asking you, was the 04 Pistons team better defensively than all of the Bulls title teams, the 94 Rockets and the 94 Knicks (I'm assuming any Rockets fan would be very familar with those 94 teams)? Because the 04 team has a better defensive rating then all of those teams. So if you are basing your conclusion on that metric then how does the logic not apply in the other comparisons? Numbers don't lie right?
     
  9. greenhippos

    greenhippos Member

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    I thought this was a thread about Wade and Bryant in the finals? Neither of them sniffed that in the 90's. Only one these players faced the 04 Pistons in the finals, a team that was dominate on defense the whole year. Wade on the other hand faced the Mavs twice who no one would say were a good defensive team.
     
  10. Yao Ming's foot

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    Exactly. Carry on.
     
  11. ItsMyFault

    ItsMyFault Member

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    Kobe has had better raw talent and skill than Wade in both players' primes.
     
  12. Icehouse

    Icehouse Member

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    You are avoiding the question. If you are using a metric to note that the 05 or 06 Pistons weren't as good on defense as the 04 ones, then that same metric should be used when making comparisons to other ballculbs. If the metric is your basis then why would it not apply to comparing that team to the Bulls, Rockets or Knicks teams. So again, do you feel that the 04 Pistons were a better defensive team than the title winning Bulls or the 94 Rockets/Knicks, as their defensive rating was higher than all of those teams?

    The 05 and 06 Pistons were dominant on defense the whole year. The 05 team was 2nd and 3rd in defense depending on which metric you want to use, and the 06 team was 3rd and 5th.

    And I agree that Wade never faced a team such as the 04 Pistons in the Finals. But Kobe has been in the Finals 7 times, and every trip wasn't against some defensive juggernaut. He has never had a Finals as good as Wade had in 06, no matter the opponent.
     
  13. Icehouse

    Icehouse Member

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    So is David Robinson better than Hakeem, and is LeBron the 2nd best player in league history? Are Duncan and Robinson better defenders than Hakeem based on their higher defensive rating?
     
  14. Yao Ming's foot

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    None of those stats claim to rank what you are projecting on them. Its a strawman argument.
     
  15. greenhippos

    greenhippos Member

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    Bryant faced the 04 Pistons in the Finals. O4 Pistons > far and beyond better the 06 Pistons. That's a fact. I'm not sure why you keep taking that and think bringing up a team's stats from 10 years before changes anything. Bryant didn't face a team in the 90's in the finals. Are we just forgetting what this thread is about?
     
  16. VBG

    VBG Member

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    04 Pistons were better than 06. Far and beyond is an exaggeration though, IMO.
     
  17. greenhippos

    greenhippos Member

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    04 Pistons: 95.4
    06 Pistons: 103.1

    That is an enormous drop no matter which way you look at it. When you're giving up that much more per game, there shouldn't be a question that 04 was far and beyond a better defensive team.
     
  18. greenhippos

    greenhippos Member

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    Here's a better way to look at it

    04 Pistons: Gave up over 100 points a total of 5 times (including playoffs)
    04 Pistons: Gave up fewer than 70 points a total of 17 SEVENTEEN times :eek:

    06 Pistons: Gave up over 100 points a total of 21 times (including playoffs)
    06 Pistons: Gave up fewer than 70 points a total of 2 TWO!! times

    To answer an off topic question by Icehouse, I would take the 04 Pistons D over any championship D since 91.
     
  19. Someguy1229

    Someguy1229 Member

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  20. greenhippos

    greenhippos Member

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    I'm here because I've only ever been a Rockets fan. But you can't even argue the 04 Pistons weren't a much better defensive team than the 94 and 95 Rockets or the 94 Knicks. Over those 3 combined seasons they kept their opponents under 70 a total of 2 times. I didn't do the exact count, but I'm pretty sure the 95 Rockets gave up 100 more times than the Pistons gave up 90.

    Then look at the Bulls D during 96 and 97, combined they allowed fewer than 70 I think it was 3 times (it could be 2, I didn't double check) while continually allowing over 100.
     

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