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King James bible fraught with "embarrassing inaccuracies"...

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by KingCheetah, Nov 18, 2004.

  1. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy
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    Washington Post reviewer Michael Dirda said that some Bible translations are so simple-minded that Adam and Eve might as well be called Dick and Jane, but "Alter will have nothing to do with (such) dumbing-down.

    "This makes reading his version of the Torah ... thrilling and constantly illuminating: After the still, small voices of so many tepid modern translations, here is a whirlwind."

    __________________________________________

    [​IMG]

    Getting the Bible back to its roots

    New Pentateuch translation from original Hebrew meanings


    (Reuters) -- It is considered the most magisterial opening in English literature: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

    But now a major revisionist translation of the Bible would have the cosmos begin with a more conversational clause: "When God began to create heaven and earth ... "

    And where the King James translation of Genesis had the earth begin "without form and void," the new translation of the Hebrew Bible says that the earth was "welter and waste."

    Biblical scholar Robert Alter's major new English translation of the first five books of the Hebrew Bible -- alternately called the Five Books of Moses, the Torah or Pentateuch -- has some critics manning the barricades while others are applauding his efforts to return the work to its original Hebrew meanings and majestic repetitions.

    A professor at the University of California at Berkeley, Alter says since he has never found a biblical translation that he liked or could recommend to his comparative literature students, he decided to do his own, starting with the story of Genesis and ending with the death of Moses.

    His argument is that past translations either get the Hebrew wrong or mangle the Bible's syntax or lose the power of the work or even are so up-to-the-minute that they become too conversational to be accurate or interesting.

    He was also determined to get back into the book every single "and" that other translators left out, saying that part of book's majesty is built by its use of repetitions.

    The 1611 King James version, perhaps the most famous book ever written by a committee, may reach poetic heights, but Alter says it is fraught with "embarrassing inaccuracies" and often substitutes Greek or Latin words and Renaissance English tonalities and rhythms for biblical ones.

    'Concrete images'

    "Reading through this book is a wearying, disorientating and at times revelatory experience," said noted author John Updike in a review of Alter's 1,063-page translation of "The Five Books of Moses" (Norton) for the New Yorker magazine in which he complained about page after page of footnotes that often explain obscure points.

    Updike also took exception to some of the translation. For example, he is a lot happier with the King James version in which "the spirit of God moved upon the face of the water" than with Alter's version of the same sentence: "God's breath hovering over the waters."

    But Alter, in an interview with Reuters, said he used the phrase "God's breath" rather than the "spirit of God" for a simple reason: "The Hebrew word means life's breath, a constant moving of oxygen in and out. The body-soul split of early Christianity is something not imagined in the early Hebrew."

    Alter said his task was to find the English equivalents of the Hebrew. "Hebrew is filled with concrete images. For example, the King James translates the famous lines of Ecclesiastes as 'vanity of vanities ... all is vanity' but the closest word in English to the Hebrew is 'vapor, vapor, all is mere vapor.' "

    Washington Post reviewer Michael Dirda said that some Bible translations are so simple-minded that Adam and Eve might as well be called Dick and Jane, but "Alter will have nothing to do with (such) dumbing-down.

    "This makes reading his version of the Torah ... thrilling and constantly illuminating: After the still, small voices of so many tepid modern translations, here is a whirlwind."

    Alter said he was especially pleased with restoring all the "ands" back in a passage where Abraham's servant is sent on a mission to find a wife for Isaac and encounters Rebekah:

    "And she came down to the spring and filled her jug and came back up. And the servant ran toward her and said, 'Pray, let me sip a bit of water from your jug.' And she said, 'Drink, my lord,' and she hurried and tipped down her jug on one hand and let him drink. And she let him drink his fill and said, 'For your camels, too, I shall draw water until they drink their fill.' And she hurried and emptied her jug into the trough, and she ran again to the well to draw water and drew water for all his camels."

    The 15 "ands" manage to build a picture of what Alter calls "the closest anyone comes in Genesis to a feat of 'Homeric' heroism" -- especially when one considers how much a camel drinks.

    Alter added: "I began this translation as a kind of dubious experiment asking, 'Is there some (method) of getting Biblical Hebrew into modern English in a way that would be readable but not be too contemporary sounding and reproduce many of the stylish effects of the Hebrew?' "

    link
     
  2. bobmarley

    bobmarley Member

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    is it out yet?
     
  3. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

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    And I thought this was a thread on Lebron. ;)
     
  4. GreenVegan76

    GreenVegan76 Member

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    Yeah, turns out Jesus' real name is Frank.
     
  5. bobmarley

    bobmarley Member

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    all kidding aside, I think I might pick it up. I have ver mixed views off Christianity and other religions and have wanted a better translation that the King James and all of it's derivitives.

    thanks for posting this
     
  6. ima_drummer2k

    ima_drummer2k Member

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    Oh really? What's his last name?

    You guessed it.

    [​IMG]

    Frank Stallone.
     
  7. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy
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    Did you know that Mel Gibson's first choice to play Jesus in The Last Temptation of Christ was Frank Stallone?

    Unfortunately Frank decided to pass.
     
  8. Oski2005

    Oski2005 Member

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    It's kind of funny that people could take something so literal when it's. . . literally wrong.
     
  9. Cesar^Geronimo

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    The examples they gave as "wrong" really are just different translations of difficult words "Spirit of God" -- "God's breathe" etc.......

    The truth's behind the words remain consistent.
     
  10. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    This is no shock. We've known this for a long time. King James sacrficed the integrity of the documents to write ornately.

    Fortunately, other versions of the Bible, like NIV or NASB, aren't translated from the King James version.

    I have a very close Mormon friend. In the Mormon tradition, they believe the King James version to be THE translation of the Bible...that you are not to read any other. I just don't understand that. King James admittedly was not trying to just grab accuracy as a translation.
     
  11. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy
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    Alter said his task was to find the English equivalents of the Hebrew. "Hebrew is filled with concrete images. For example, the King James translates the famous lines of Ecclesiastes as 'vanity of vanities ... all is vanity' but the closest word in English to the Hebrew is 'vapor, vapor, all is mere vapor.' "
    _____________________________

    There is quite a bit of difference here I believe ~ i'm sure with a thousand plus pages there are many more.
     
  12. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    Who uses the King James Bible anymore??

    Seriously...I haven't seen a King James Bible in a church in my life.

    I don't know any Christian who wouldn't agree with this guy and pat him on the back for pointing it out.
     
  13. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Atomic Playboy
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    I thought the KJ Bible was the most widely used. :confused:
     
  14. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    no..not at all. not even close. NIV (New International Version) is.

    again..i don't recall ever studying the Bible through a King James version. not at all. never seen them at a church, except in a church library...certainly not in the pews. never seen them at a Bible study I've ever attended through either a church or a para-church group.
     
  15. DarkHorse

    DarkHorse Member

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    That's not precisely true. Mormons use the King James Version of the Bible, but understand that you have to take a lot of the translation with a grain of salt. The fact is that every translation of the Bible has some agenda or another involved in the translation, so there are going to be inaccuracies as a result.

    One of the Mormon "Articles of Faith" states, "We believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly..." Inherent in this tenet is the understanding that the translation is suspect. But in it's original form, the Bible is the word of God.
     
  16. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    cool..thanks for clearing that up. it's just my understanding from my friend that the King James Bible is the translation that the Church of Latter Day Saints says is the MOST accurate. i'm not sure where that idea comes from.

    as an aside...not every translation has an agenda to be anything other than a fair translation. that movement hit big time here in the US back in the 60's and 70's. enough so that a comparison with books in the Dead Sea Scrolls, transcribed before Christ, read as translated in your pew Bibles.
     
  17. Cesar^Geronimo

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    The entire passage in Ecclesiates is:

    Ecclesiastes 1
    1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
    2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
    3 What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?
    4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

    Saying vanity of vanities or vapor, vapor all is vapor may seem like a big difference, but when taking them in the context of the passage the difference is small. Either way we get the meaning that the profit of the labor is short term. The "truth" behind the passage is still clear either way.
     
  18. Mrs. Valdez

    Mrs. Valdez Member

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    My father's solution to the translation problem was that he would always bring his own copies of the Hebrew and Greek texts with him to church and Bible studies. Of course, it helps that he can read Hebrew and Greek. Generally, it is a good idea to be aware of the limitations of your translation and be prepared to do some research into the terms in their original language when you encounter something that makes less sense in English or can lead to real dispute about the original intent.
     
  19. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    yeah...agreed. i get insight by reading commentaries regarding the original greek translation when dealing with the New Testament. very helpful.
     
  20. DarkHorse

    DarkHorse Member

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    Actually, Joseph Smith was known to have said that he found the Lutheran Bible (which is in German) to be the most nearly correct translation of the Bible. Just an interesting sidenote.

    :)
     

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