I have been asked repeatedly what my stance is on the U.S. It has been often proposed that my objections to current U.S. actions stem from some sort of hatred for America, or more recently treeman, in a very well thought out post, suggested that I envision the U.S. as being part of a quasi-Communist world order where the United Nations plays the major role in deciding each nation's foreign policy, and that as a result, I want the US to be brought down a peg or two so that we don't dominate the world...and he is partly right, but it's not nearly that simple. Then another poster again suggested that I do indeed hate the US, and merely lie to cover it up...I was already thinking about trying to summarize my feelings about the US in a post, and in response to these two recent posts, one of which I respected enough to want to respond to, the other of which I see as symptomatic of the problem I'm trying to address, I thought I might as well. If your intial feeling is " Who gives a crap about what MacBeth thinks about the US?" by all means don't bother reading further...I am not suggesting my opinion should matter more than anyone else's, but it's just been questioned and mocked so often that I wanted to address as much of it as I can in a seperate post rather than dominate others. To begin with, I am largely a historian...this will help to explain, if not my reasoning, at least the means I use to explain it. I will use historical parallels to make points, and some people either don't enjoy that, or feel that any history prior to about 1960 is irrelevant. As a historian, I couldn't disagree more; history is a series of patterns which are relevant as long as two factors remain constant; human nature, and the fact that history continues to be dominated by it. To say 'the world has changed' is specious and selective; The world always changes...it will be different tomorrow than it is today, and to decide when human behaviour ceased operating on certain lines and started operating on others is, at least, to be aware of some sort of natural Revolution that history in general knows nothing about. As such, patterns from all history are relevant, both individual and more particularly collectively, and make the only real objective means we have by which to evaluate current major events. I see the United States as The Great Experiment. In a world which was ruled by the principle of Might is Right, constantly witness and/or party to ongoing struggles between imperialist superpowers, or subject to their whims if you happened to not be among them, the Founding Fathers of the United States did something incredible by historical standards; they fought for an ideal...and won. More incredibly still, when that battle had been won, rather than turning into what they had rebelled against, as happened in virtually every other revolution on history, the new found Unisted States of America stopped fighting and set about trying to construct a nation built on the principles for which they had fought, principles mostly derived from Voltaire, and illustrated by Jefferson and Payne; freedom, self-determination, equality, and the principle that might does not equal right. Clearly it was an imperfect beginning...slavery, sexual inequality, native genocide and many other American failures were present or yet to come at that time...but it was still a moment to make the world catch its breath, if only it had been watching. Two hundred and thirty odd years later, and I believe the experiment is at a perilous moment. For the first time in my life, I am afraid for it's future. Oh, I have been dismayed by individual decisions in the past...I felt that our horrendous actions during the Cold War were often excused with the all too easy "The other guy started it/was worse/made me do it." kind of rationalization more understandable in a playground than international relations...but it was an ebb and flow kind of war, and aside from the period when the Dulles brothers were major players, and McCarthyism, it was not indicative of a fundamental shift in foreign policy which saw the United States as part of and subject to the same rules that applied to the rest of the globe. We may have secretly acted like we were above the rules at times, but it was sporadic, and always offset with significant attempts to maintain the power of global will as a stabilizing factor in international relations. We were the ones who told the British and French that they couldn't reclaim the Suez via military might because that kind of thinking didn't apply in the new, globaly responsible world... We were the ones who cried out the loudest when the USSR cited pre-emptive self defense and freedom as excuses to roll over much of Eastern Europe...We were the ones who helped found the League of Nations and later the United Nations to preclude individual superpowers deciding that thier might allowed them to dictate to other less powerfull nations like Nazi Germany did...We were the ones who stopped at the Iraqi border because that was where our U.N. mandate ended... I have cried foul over individual actions before...but I have never before seen such a systematic shift in American attitude to the world, and its role in it. The greatest parallels in history for the united States as it now stands are, I feel, ancient Athens, and france during the reign of Louis XIV. Ancient Athens was also a great experiment, in many ways a much greater one than the US, if for no other reason than it had never been tried before. The US had ancient Rome and the Hellenistic worlds to use as models; Cleisthenes et al were making it up as they went along. They ejected their tyrants, and contructed an incredible, albeit flawed system which defied accepted contemporary political norms in favour of something approaching responsible government. Sparta had something similar, but it was dependant upon a servile race called helots which limited it both morally and strategically. Athens, at the time a minor player in the Hellenistic world dominated by superpowers fighting each other or controlling lesser ones ( sound familiar? ) emerged as a new power based on the popular power of her system, the economic and scientific developments that system fostered, and the power and wealth those elements afforded her. And for a while, particularly after taking part in an alliance against an aggressive foreign superpower (Persia) and emerging victorious ( again...familiar?), Athens was the darling of the Adriatic...other nations were gratefull for her help in defeating the common enemy, and respectfull of the system which had assisted in her rise in power. But over time, and especially through a long and largely indecisive war with a former ally during the Persian Wars ( see the amazing parallels?) Athenian attitudes towards the Greek world and her role in it shifted...She lost perspective on the ideals upn whichg she had been founded; self-determination, freedom, equality, and the principle that might does not equal right, and began to act with in accordance with the new found priorities of power and acquisition of wealth. With those in mind she no longer was satisfied with exporting her system by example and word, she began to enforce it by military might. She would invade other regions, establish democracies favorable to trade with herself, and move on...and the dismayed and disillusioned greek world who had once regarded her as the shining light of freedom now saw her as just another tyrant telling lesser powers how to behave. Eventually most of them allied against her, sided with Sparta, and Athens was destined to lose her place in the Greek world just as she had lost her way in the pursuit of power. Whatever the ideals with which she began and grew, she followed in the footsteps of all the other power players before and since, and is often discussed since in tones of mixed appreciation for her remarkable accomplishments, rapid ascent to power, and sadness as what might have been. Louis XIV also represented something exciting and new to the world...in a world still shaking off the vestiges of the Dark Ages and coming to grips with the new ideas and ideals of the Renaissance, Louis XIV was the epitome of the Enlightened Monarch; he studied philosophy, languages, history, and the arts...He understood the principles of the Age of Reason, and was looked upon by much of Europe, soon after his ascent, with a kind of awe and respect virtually unknown today...He was called The Sun King, and not just by the French. In the famous words of a 'rival' king, he stood astride Europe like a thoughtfull Colossus. Under his reign France became far and way the most dominant power in Europe at a time when Europe was the most dominant part of the world. He despised what he regarded as the Feudal mindset of conquest ofr conquest's sake, and spent years deciding upon and establishing France's 'natural borders', beyond which he professed no ambition. And he suceeded...repeatedly and with great acclaim. His court became the center of European diplomacy, and it was common knowledge that all other nations foreign policy hinged upon their attitude towards France, and France's attitude towards them. Except something happened along the way...Louis began to extend French power and control beyond that which he had originally sought...he began to treat other nations with disdain and contempt...He began to seek to control affairs of other nations with no direct affect on France on the grounds that it could represent some future danger. All of this culminated with his decision to invade the Spanish Netherlands and when its neighbours refused to assist him, Louis declared that those who did not assist him were in fact his enemies from that point onwards. He had the power to make the world shake, he said...and he was right...for a while. Eventually those whom he treated as beneath his concern, those he had dictated to from a position of strength, those whom he decreed with either with him or against him, none of whom were anywhere near the equal to France allied against him and gradually eroded the power of France until he sued for peace with France having roughly the same borders as she had jad when he assumed the throne. It was an incredible turnaround; from the Sun King to the tyrant of Europe...from the common idol to the common enemy. At the end of his life, Louis admitted his mistakes...he calimed that power and wealth, both for himself and for France ( he literally saw them as synonomous) had clouded his vision and he had lost his way. " In the end, " he said shortly beofre his death, " I was too fond of Glory." There are other parallels to be made; the Roman Republic, Napoleon, etc. but thse two are most germane to the US as it stand, I feel, at a crossroads. Like Napoleon we risk betraying the ideals upon which we were founded for the sake of pragmatism...like the Roman Republic we are lessening our individual rights and becoming pre-emptively aggressive to other nations in the name of safety. There are others... There are those who will argue that we have to be practical in the face of the dangers which confront us...I will say that those dangers are no more real than those who have confronted many a nation, including our own, thoughout history...We have merely grown used to feeling safe as a nation within our own borders, and have forgotten that freedom and ideald have a price...9-11, as terrible as it was, still pales in comparison to the sacrifices we have made in the past in the name of our ideals. The Revolution, the Civil War and noth World Wars accounted for many more sacrifices in the name of freedom, self-determination, equality and the priciple that might does not equal right than a hundred 9-11's could ever hope to offset. I feel that we have grown soft...have come to expect our own assured safety so much that we are willing to throw away those ideals in the name of safety when the price of freedom is suddenly brought home to us on our soil...and we have the leadership to try build and exploit that fear and softness to achieve ends it already had in sight. Manny Ramirez can tell you that I saw this coming in the days immediately following 9-11...I said that our fear and anger was such that it could easliy be used to invade nations that we have issue with, irrespective of theor connection with 9-11. It is symptomatic of the job Bush et al have done on the nation that I was ridiculed for my fears then, and by many of the same people who now support just those actions. Paying the price for freedom is not going to war with people who you feel might be a threat to you; freedom is not a padded room. It inherantly comes with danger...freedom meands that some might use that freedom to cause you harm. Freedom can be exploited...but it is cowardly and a betrayal of priciple to say that when freedom and safety are in the breach, freedom goes first. I love what this country is based upon...I love founding ideas like " Give me liberty or give me death!"...How has it become " Give me comfort or give me someone else's death!"? I feel that we, as a nation, have grown soft. And soft doesn't mean that we have grown pacifistic...soft means we have come to place our ability to live in comfort and to acquire wealth above all other things...or at least some of us have, and the people running the show right now are either riding that wave or making it bigger. Millions have died for those ideals we now dismiss as impractical...and they died in the real world. Another Brother can tell you how I feel about race relations...I feel very, very strongly about the principle of racial equality, as I do about the principles upon which this country was founded. And I see it as a betrayal of that principle when those previously victimized by racism, in AB's case African-Americans, make what I feel to be racist comments with a feeling of justification because of previous wrongs. ( AB..not rehashing old arguments, or saying you were doing what I'm talking about...just pointing out that you can attest to the strength of my convictions about this subject ) The reason I feel that way is this: If you have been the victim of racism, than the wrong is racism...people with power over you have exploited that power because they could, based on racial prejudice. If, when that power is reversed, balanced, or even somewhat rectified you do the same thing, ie make assumptions based on race, you have betrayed the fight against racism and worse still, have in a way legitimized those who did it beofre you, the racist whiltes. You have said that those with the power to make racial prejudices will do so if they can, and doing so when you can pits you in the same boat of prejudiced people. I feel similarly to women who make anti-male prejudical assumptions...Equality is what we're after, and if you get into vindication you reduce it to a power struggle, and that betrays the principle of equality. In the same way, when the United States, the nation who said that the British Empire had no right to tell others what to do just because it had the might and decided it was right does the same thing when it has switched roles, I feel betrayed. When the United States, the nation who upheld the principle of global will in the face of the USSR's aggressive exportation of it's politcal beliefs now turns its back on that principle in order to do the same, i feel that we have said that we are, at the core, no different than any other power player in history. We may have different methods...many have been tried before, and as evidenced by my earlier Athenian example, this one isn't all that new either, but the principle that we have the might and are better than everyone else, so we get to do what we want, try and stop us is the same tired old song. We were the hope of the world...we still could be. The Great Experiment isn't over, as far as I'm concerned...and I love America for what is has been, and what it can be. But what it is right at the moment frightens and saddens me...we are too filled with fear for our comfortable way of life, too willing to betray the principles others have died for because of it, too filled with a sense of national self-righteousness and superiority, too willing to turn a blind eye when our leaders lie to us, betray the principles of self-determination by telling others how to live or that of global will checking aggression of individual powers, and too ready to do so in the name of freedom and safety while sacrificing the one in the name of the other. Treeman and others will say that I am asking us to sacrifice our own right to self-determination and give it over to the UN. Well, I don't agree...we are only putting our ability to be aggressive with other nations before the opinion of the world, something we have demanded others do for decades. THE UN, while imperfect, still represents the ideals with which it was founded; the principle of sovereignty, the war as a last measure imperative, and the power of global will as a check to agressive superpowers. It worked fine for us when the USSR was the aggressive superpower...nothing in the system has changed, we have. We had no objection to the power of the UNSC veto when we were using it more than anyone else...we didn't see the irrelevance of the UN when Kruschev said it was that and just a puppet of the united States...we were untroubled by other nations sacrificing their self-determination and right to defend themselves when they were the ones making those claims and we were the ones enforcing UN mandates. And, best of all, we are willing now to see the UN as having betrayed us by doing what is has always done, in the way it has always done it..we think that because we pay the majority of the bills, the UN should not side with the principles upon which it was founded; to represent the popular will of the nations it represents, but should instead practice patronage on a global scale...How far have we come? And now that the UN has, accurately, reflected the popular global opinion that we are in the wrong in this instance we suddenly have all these procedural problems with it...suddenly it's imperfections are so ingrained that the system clearly doesn't work...this in a nation whose response to the imperfections of democracy is usually " It isn't perfect, but it's the best system we've come up with." ...The convenience of our sudden technical objections to UN's way of doing things would be comical if the implications about our actually buying into it weren't so sad. I do not hate the United States...In fact, I hold out hope that it is not too late for it to be the shining City on a Hill. But I am afraid...I do not fear that we will become a terrible nation like Nazi Germany...but I do fear that we are moving closer to that kind of miopic mass prioritization of power/pragmatism over principle than I would have ever thought possible for any extended period of time. I fear that we are, now that no single power opposes us, acting more and more like the bully, and less and less like the example to the world that we were. We have the potential to be great...our foundation is great. I don't mean great in terms of power...power has come and gone throughout history, and will continue to do so long after we are gone. I mean great in terms of changing the course of history, of altering human behaviour for the better. We stood for the principle that might does not equal right...if we stand for that now that we have the might, we will possibly change the way power and justice are ingrained in human interaction for the future of the planet. I felt once that we would do that...I am now less sure. We cannot stand for self-determination by forcing our version of it on others...we cannot stand against might is right thinking when we treat the world's opinion with contempt merely because, like all other superpowers in history, we also think that we're right and the world is wrong. We cannot stand for freedom when we are willing to sacrifice it rather than face the dangers it comes with. Power is a jealous mistress...she tolerates no rivals. When you start to place power first, you will end up with power alone. The Great Experiment is not over...I still love America, and hope we can be different than the superpowers in the past. We have hit bumps in the road before...but we have never, in my opinion, stood in so much jeopardy of willingly throwing away our principles for the sake of power and comfort, and as such following the same path, albeit in a different fashion, as every other powerful nation in history. My greatest fear for this country is not that we will become Nazi Germany or something of that ilk. It is that we will abandon our principles for the usual reasons, will betray our foundation and our forefathers while using their slogans, and will give up our chance to become a nation that changes the way the world thinks and acts in order to become just another superpower. PEACE JAG
MacBeth: This is an interesting topic, and hopefully one we can discuss civilly and rationally, but I don't have time right now to respond. Graveyard shift / duty... But I'll try to get back to it tomorrow. I'm daytime QRF for the next week and a half, so unless someone attacks us I've got more time than I know what to do with...
Great read Macbeth. You make some very interesting points, and I hope it is not all as dark as you portray it. My hope is that it isn't, for these three reasons: 1. I think that even if America has lost its way a little bit, it is difficult for it to get too lost without changing our constitution. The constitution would seem to prevent the same people from remaining in power too long, which seems to lead to the moral corruption you speak of. 2. Other countries, such as Canada, have adopted America's ideals. Even if America loses its way somewhat, you still have other democratic countries that are even more reluctant to use force to get their way. 3. If you read the foreign press, America does seem to have lost a little respect. People from other countries don't seem to like Americans that much, and you might think discern from that that America is not what it should be. However, much like people love to hate the Lakers, other countries have people who love to hate Americans and America, because America is too strong. Incidentally, I have lost more faith in the U.N. than in America. France and Germany are clearly manipulating events to suit their pocketbooks, and their refusal to lift the oil embargo speaks more clearly to me than their previous weapon sales to Iraq. The system seems clearly broken to me, and I am at a loss as to what would be best to do when politicians leave Iraqis without power and food while they negotiate contracts.
Just wanted to say another excellent post MacBeth. I found it to be a great read even on a Friday night. KT
If that's all that you're going to contribute, couldn't you have just left your criticism of my opinions as understood?
yeah...I get it...Got it a long time ago; for some people a long read is a bad read. Okay...message recieved. If you only want sounbites on paper, don't read most of my posts...
Great read MacBeth. Love you or hate you, no one on this BBS can say you can't write. PS. Why would you click a thread....not read it.... but post in it anyway?
Wow... gotta give ya credit Jag. When you embark upon an explanation..you give a freaking explanation and a half. I am looking forward to the forthcoming discussion between you and tree. hope yall can keep it civil. and for the record...I am afraid that we are not on the right path right now...but I have faith that the system won't allow it to continue much further. For every person out there that is starting to believe the might makes right creedo, I believe there are 10 silent citizens that are uncomfortable with that way of thinking. Even if you are losing faith with the leaders, don't lose faith in the good people of this country. They are still there, it's just that sometimes it takes something big to motivate them to rise up and make themselves heard. or all that I wrote is bs, and Im just a big sunshine-ass homer... you make the call.. btw...If you people couldn't attempt to read a well thought out post(even if you think Jag is full or it)...don't bother commenting..it's a waste of your time and mine.
Hmmm, the funny thing is.... American politicians try to hide the fact (from the world) that we are doing things for our own self-interest. But the conservatives always lash out to the liberals that U.S. is doing things for its own self-interest, and that's what being "pro-American" is all about; accusing liberals of being anti-American. Yet, we have the audacity to blame another country for doing the same (acting for reasons of self-interest).
By the way, MacBeth. Calling someone anti-American has always been a proaganda tactic used during war times. It doesn't matter if the war is just or unjust. The pro-war side will AWAYS use "anti-American" name calling as a tool to put censorship presure on you to stop talking; it goes to the deepest sense of shame; accuse you for not appreciating freedom (Even thoug THEY maybe wrong, and they know it. It doesn't matter. They are trying to shut you up!). But the important thing to remember is that you ignore it. Because freedom of speech should not be vilified. Beacuse if the American Goverment is able to censor its citizens, then it truly isn't a Democracy anymore but a quasi-Communistic civil society.
So you can get a free post, duh! P.S. I realise the irony of what I just posted, is considered a 'free post'.
That was a great read MacBeth.U put my thoughts into words. Though not having as much historical background as you,I would compare the US to the Romain Empire:an very powerful nation for a long time but now just disapeared for having thought too much of itself.And I fear that's what will happen soon. That is true for some ppl,but there is a reason for that.The image that the America reflects is one of a very arrogant country full of hypocrisy(the most common example being equality for all). I wanted to add much more but I don't have the same writing skills as MacBeth(added to the fact that english isn't a language I get topractice much) and some of my thoughts might be misinterpreted. ALA
In a similar vein. Nice to hear about ancient Athens and other topics I'm not up on. **************** **************** It’s sometimes lamented by a certain kind of journalist or commentator that we do not live in an heroic age. Policemen, soldiers, teachers, or crippled celebrities might be called heroes for a while but, so the complaint goes, a real appreciation for heroism is absent from our age. Heroes once had permanent cults in their honor; they don’t any more. Not even cops, soldiers or Christopher Reeve. Those who complain about this perceived lack of heroism in our day should probably read more epic literature – the Iliad or the Aeneid would be obvious places to start. Heroes, for all their excellence, led lives that few of us would envy. The tragic story of Achilles speaks for itself. Odysseus got off fairly lightly, he was just lost at sea for a few years and lost all his ships and crew, most of whom either drowned or were eaten by monsters. Such is the fate of a hero’s companions. Then there was poor Aeneas, the Roman hero. He lost his home and his wife in the sack of Troy. He later lost his father, a woman he loved, and a good many of his followers over the course of his wanderings. All of his storm-tossed misery was ultimately for a purpose, though: fate had predestined Aeneas to found the line that would later found Rome. What Aeneas lost – just about everything that could be worth having – he lost for the sake of a single thing: imperium sine fine, an "empire without end." His heroic epithet was pius, "dutiful," because whenever the opportunity came his way to do something sensible, like settling down with the nubile queen of a prosperous North African city-state, he would instead follow the path that fate had decreed. He was a dutiful son and soldier, yes, but his first duty was to the empire-to-be. Aeneas paid a dear price for his devotion and, much to its credit, the Aeneid gives no easy answer to the question of whether the imperium was worth its price. There have long been arguments within classics departments over the possibility that maybe, in some cryptic way, the Aeneid is an anti-war, anti-imperial work. It probably isn’t: the emperor Augustus commissioned the epic himself and when the poet Vergil left instructions that his unfinished epic be burned after his death, Augustus and his cultural adviser, Maecenas, went ahead and published it anyway. It was instantly heralded as a masterpiece and rapidly became a standard text in Roman schools. If there’s a subversive subtext to the Aeneid it evidently didn’t bother the emperor or his ministers, any one of whom would have been in a better position to detect it than the greatest of modern philologists. But even without being directly critical of Augustus, the Aeneid at the very least shows the high price of war and empire in an artistically honest fashion. There is nothing glamorous or noble about the warfare seen in book II of the Aeneid, the sack of Troy by the Greeks. The murder of the old Trojan king, Priam, by Pyrrhus, son of Achilles and in Vergil’s account a near-psychopath, is as pitiable a scene as is to be found anywhere in literature. And the final scene of the whole epic, in which the hero slaughters an already fallen foe, in an echo of the mad rage of Achilles, should leave any reader unsure of his sympathies. For Turnus, victim of Aeneas’s wrath, was a brave man in his own right, but differed from Aeneas in not having had the favor of the gods. For all his courage and virtue, Aeneas might seem more like a fool than a hero were it not for the god-given assurance of his – and his heirs’s – success. Imperium sine fine doesn’t sound too preposterous when its coming from the king of the gods. It’s poetic license, of course, but the Aeneid is poetry, and great poetry at that. History, however, is a very different thing. The great historians of antiquity do not offer much comfort to those who would seek to create an empire without end. The Roman historians Livy, Tacitus and Suetonius all lived during the principate and hated what Rome had become. However permanent the imperium abroad might have seemed to them, Rome itself – the republic to which they owed their affection and (albeit after the fact) their loyalty – had proven sadly ephemeral. Tacitus and Suetonius chronicled the strife that comes with empire: standing armies ready to mutiny, domestic repression, the intrigues and abuses of power-hungry rulers, the fraying of the fabric of civilization. None of it would have surprised the earlier historians, the Greeks, the earliest and greatest of whom, Herodotus and Thucydides, both dedicated their seminal works to exposing the follies of unbounded imperial ambition (that of Xerxes on the one hand, and the Athenians on the other). Herodotus in particular was explicit about the inevitable nemesis, the inevitable downfall, that follows upon hybris, excessive pride and power. As embellished and sometimes inaccurate in detail as Herodotus’s history is, in this central point he is simply relating what has always been history’s surest lesson, valid from before the time of Croesus to the era of Napoleon, to today. There is no imperium sine fine, because worldly power cannot compensate for man’s mortal and venal nature. The accumulation of power just leads to more and more atrocious expressions of that nature, and ultimately to harsher nemesis. American foreign policy really is guided by a belief in imperium sine fine, a belief that must find its roots, like Aeneas’s empire without end, in a confidence in some kind of divine Providence, because certainly it is not historical. The issue here is a serious one: the US has some 100,000-odd troops in Western Europe, as many again in the Far East, and a few hundred thousand more right now in Central Asia and the Middle East. Just how far-flung do Americans – or more importantly, American policymakers – think US forces can be? How many hundreds of thousands of men and women in uniform will it take to maintain the military presence we already have, and how much money will it cost? How much blood? And just as importantly, how long do we really expect it all to last – and how will it end? No doubt there are superficial answers to these questions to be had from "defense intellectuals" (who usually aren’t very intellectual and do nothing at all that relates to "defense"), but the correct answers are those that are provided by history – not only history-to-be, but history as it has been. But it’s not history that guides US foreign policy; one cannot escape that conclusion. Instead it’s a religious and poetic vision, one given ghoulish form in the "Battle Hymn of the Republic" (written in the early 1860's to urge on the federal armies attacking the South; it ought to be called the "Battle Hymn of the Empire"), with its lines like "As He died to make men holy, let us die to make them free." Even apart from the question of whether a soteriological function should be attributed to any nation, the idea that one can free another by dying is patent nonsense. Iraq has proved a case in point: no sooner was Saddam Hussein out of power than a new kind of tyranny, the anarcho-tyranny of mob rule, erupted. Yet still the idea of "saving" others through military force continues to inspire Americans who ought to know better. Some of our countrymen may think that America itself can be saved in the same way. Throughout the 1990's sleazy talk shows would, from time to time, do programs on "boot camps" for wayward youths. Among certain conservatives there’s a belief that militarization will provide just the kind of literal "boot camp" that America’s fat, lazy and decadent youth really need. This belief is every bit as vain as the idea of turning Iraq into a "democracy." History certainly refutes it; as Rome became more militarized, the decadence only increased. Nor does Sparta provide much of a role model; all its austerity failed to stave off internal corruption, or even to save the city itself from being reduced to a third-rate power after it had exhausted itself in wars with Athens and succeeding wars with other city-states. There is no empire without end. With America at the zenith of its power the nation’s downfall is the last thing on most of its people’s minds, but a nation, no less than an individual, has only so long to live. The man who has faith may know that there is another, longer life ahead but for the nation-state, this is it. Just as death, in this world, comes to the mighty, the wealthy and the good as surely as to the feeble, poor and evil, so too through demographic collapse or foreign conquest or natural disaster every nation is brought low. But not all deaths are equally bad; where nations are concerned, fading away peacefully is surely better than to be hacked to pieces by Goths or Huns or Mongols. The actions that America takes now will influence what end the nation will ultimately have. Which is more likely to have a tranquil end, a world-spanning empire with no conception of its own limits – or of any human limits, for that matter – or a self-limited republic? One of the characteristics of the human being is that he can look ahead to possible futures when making a decision, and can reconstruct the past. Other animals can learn from their own mistakes; but man can learn from the mistakes of others, even those made by men far away and separated from him by hundreds or thousands of years. If man were immortal, he would never have to learn any lessons at all, and could afford to make as many mistakes as he might like, because there would always be time to make amends. But man isn’t immortal, in the earthly sense, and nation-states certainly are not. To have all of this history, all of this literature, and learn nothing from it would be as damning an indictment against civilization as the savagery of empire itself. Empires have consequences, and there are no "heroes" without terrible human costs. April 23, 2003 Daniel McCarthy [send him mail] is a graduate student in classics at Washington University in St. Louis. empires
Um...we're not talking the athenian league, here. We're not collecting tribute (yet) - we're shoveling money out. btw - The Milean debate from Thucidides is one of my favorites. That's essentially the question you're driving at. So...we are a superpower. There is problem X somewhere. What do we do? Nothing? or Something? Spidey rule applies.
I have a few problems with your historical "paralleles." I know very little about the ancient world, so I will limit my critique of the Athens model to this: your argument for Athens's lack of "might makes right" is flawed, in my opinion, because it was still a time of brutal force and just about everyone believed in it. Even at a time when experiments in democracy were made, life was still brutal and all of the various city-states and surrounding cultures were still trying to forge thir borders and their role in the very turbulent world around them. The environment for the formation of the US was quite a bit different...and besides, the US was founded on a "might makes right" principle anyway. My real problems, though, begin with Louis... Louis XIV also represented something exciting and new to the world...in a world still shaking off the vestiges of the Dark Ages and coming to grips with the new ideas and ideals of the Renaissance, Louis XIV was the epitome of the Enlightened Monarch; OK, first, as an historian you should know better than to use the term "Dark Ages." Sorry, that just bothers me. Next, Louis ascended the throne in 1661, so Europe was well over it's medieval mindset and the Renaissance had faded into the ether. Your use of "Enlightened Monarch" and subsequent discussion of him understanding the Age of Reason are also problematic in that Louis was not really an Enlightenment figure. For one thing, he died (in 1715) before the Enlightenment was really to get off the ground. Additionally, he was actually fairly anti-Enlightenment because he was an absolute monarch, something against which the Enlightenment will eventually rebel. He understood the principles of the Age of Reason, and was looked upon by much of Europe, soon after his ascent, with a kind of awe and respect virtually unknown today...He was called The Sun King, and not just by the French... His court became the center of European diplomacy, and it was common knowledge that all other nations foreign policy hinged upon their attitude towards France, and France's attitude towards them. Except something happened along the way...Louis began to extend French power and control beyond that which he had originally sought...he began to treat other nations with disdain and contempt...He began to seek to control affairs of other nations with no direct affect on France on the grounds that it could represent some future danger. ... .... It was an incredible turnaround; from the Sun King to the tyrant of Europe...from the common idol to the common enemy. At the end of his life, Louis admitted his mistakes...he calimed that power and wealth, both for himself and for France ( he literally saw them as synonomous) had clouded his vision and he had lost his way. " In the end, " he said shortly beofre his death, " I was too fond of Glory." This is where I have the greatest problem - your characterization, basically, of him going from good to bad. First, it must be understood that Louis did not invent himself or his position...he was essentially the culmination of the political workings of Cardinal Richelieu, continued by Card. Mazarin. They were responding to the Protestant threat that had already showed itself through the Wars of Religion. The answer, then, was to have an absolute monarch with the divine right of king - all powerful. So, Louis was groomed. Also, the "Sun King" label was not really given to him by admirers, it was pretty self-proclaimed and, again, was a tool of propaganda to establish himself as both the "center of the universe" and his god-like position in the world (similar to Apollo). Louis ruled a great deal through fear and intimidation throughout his reign. I don't really see a good to bad scenario, as he was basically programmed to consolidate power from the beginning and to continue consolidating power throughout his life. He was good, to be sure, and he knew how to rule well, as contrasted by the poor ruling of the two later Louis kings...but I don't really see a parrallel between this power-hungry, divine, absolute monarch and your US democracy gone bad. This was a poor exercise, I know...if anything needs clarification, tell me.