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Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by No Worries, May 26, 2005.

  1. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Any bets this judge has moved to the top of GWB's list for the next Supreme Court nomination?

    Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs
    Father appeals order in divorce decree that prevents couple from exposing son to Wicca.

    By Kevin Corcoran
    kevin.corcoran@indystar.com

    An Indianapolis father is appealing a Marion County judge's unusual order that prohibits him and his ex-wife from exposing their child to "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."

    The parents practice Wicca, a contemporary pagan religion that emphasizes a balance in nature and reverence for the earth.

    Cale J. Bradford, chief judge of the Marion Superior Court, kept the unusual provision in the couple's divorce decree last year over their fierce objections, court records show. The order does not define a mainstream religion.

    Bradford refused to remove the provision after the 9-year-old boy's outraged parents, Thomas E. Jones Jr. and his ex-wife, Tammie U. Bristol, protested last fall.

    Through a court spokeswoman, Bradford said Wednesday he could not discuss the pending legal dispute.

    The parents' Wiccan beliefs came to Bradford's attention in a confidential report prepared by the Domestic Relations Counseling Bureau, which provides recommendations to the court on child custody and visitation rights. Jones' son attends a local Catholic school.

    "There is a discrepancy between Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones' lifestyle and the belief system adhered to by the parochial school. . . . Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones display little insight into the confusion these divergent belief systems will have upon (the boy) as he ages," the bureau said in its report.

    But Jones, 37, Indianapolis, disputes the bureau's findings, saying he attended Bishop Chatard High School in Indianapolis as a non-Christian.

    Jones has brought the case before the Indiana Court of Appeals, with help from the Indiana Civil Liberties Union. They filed their request for the appeals court to strike the one-paragraph clause in January.

    "This was done without either of us requesting it and at the judge's whim," said Jones, who has organized Pagan Pride Day events in Indianapolis. "It is upsetting to our son that he cannot celebrate holidays with us, including Yule, which is winter solstice, and Ostara, which is the spring equinox."

    The ICLU and Jones assert the judge's order tramples on the parents' constitutional right to expose their son to a religion of their choice. Both say the court failed to explain how exposing the boy to Wicca's beliefs and practices would harm him.

    Bristol is not involved in the appeal and could not be reached for comment. She and Jones have joint custody, and the boy lives with the father on the Northside.

    Jones and the ICLU also argue the order is so vague that it could lead to Jones being found in contempt and losing custody of his son.

    "When they read the order to me, I said, 'You've got to be kidding,' " said Alisa G. Cohen, an Indianapolis attorney representing Jones. "Didn't the judge get the memo that it's not up to him what constitutes a valid religion?"

    Some people have preconceived notions about Wicca, which has some rituals involving nudity but mostly would be inoffensive to children, said Philip Goff, director of the Center for the Study of Religion & American Culture at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis.

    "Wiccans use the language of witchcraft, but it has a different meaning to them," Goff said. "Their practices tend to be rather pacifistic. They tend to revolve around the old pagan holidays. There's not really a church of Wicca. Practices vary from region to region."

    Even the U.S. military accommodates Wiccans and educates chaplains about their beliefs, said Lawrence W. Snyder, an associate professor of religious studies at Western Kentucky University.

    "The federal government has given Wiccans protection under the First Amendment," Snyder said. "Unless this judge has some very specific information about activities involving the child that are harmful, the law is not on his side."

    At times, divorcing parents might battle in the courts over the religion of their children. But Kenneth J. Falk, the ICLU's legal director, said he knows of no such order issued before by an Indiana court. He said his research also did not turn up such a case nationally.

    "Religion comes up most frequently when there are disputes between the parents. There are lots of cases where a mom and dad are of different faiths, and they're having a tug of war over the kids," Falk said. "This is different: Their dispute is with the judge. When the government is attempting to tell people they're not allowed to engage in non-mainstream activities, that raises concerns."

    Indiana law generally allows parents who are awarded physical custody of children to determine their religious training; courts step in only when the children's physical or emotional health would be endangered.

    Getting the judge's religious restriction lifted should be a slam-dunk, said David Orentlicher, an Indiana University law professor and Democratic state representative from Indianapolis.

    "That's blatantly unconstitutional," Orentlicher said. "Obviously, the judge can order them not to expose the child to drugs or other inappropriate conduct, but it sounds like this order was confusing or could be misconstrued."

    The couple married in February 1995, and their divorce was final in February 2004.

    As Wiccans, the boy's parents believe in nature-based deities and engage in worship rituals that include guided meditation that Jones says improved his son's concentration. Wicca "is an understanding that we're all connected, and respecting that," said Jones, who is a computer Web designer.

    Jones said he does not consider himself a witch or practice anything resembling witchcraft.

    During the divorce, he told a court official that Wiccans are not devil worshippers. And he said he does not practice a form of Wicca that involves nudity.

    "I celebrate life as a duality. There's a male and female force to everything," Jones said. "I feel the Earth is a living creature. I don't believe in Satan or any creature of infinite evil."
     
  2. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

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    What I don't get is what does the kid's school have to do with a divorce proceeding? Is the kid's school getting custody?
     
  3. mc mark

    mc mark Member

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    There are worse things than being Wicca.

    I'm sure this will be overturned and that judge just blew his career.
     
  4. Refman

    Refman Member

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    Anytime a judge is deciding custody matters, the administrators at the school can file a report.

    In this case, the judge's decision is stupid. If the Catholic school does not like him being exposed to Wicca, they do not have to allow his continued enrollment at their institution.
     
  5. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    "There is a discrepancy between Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones' lifestyle and the belief system adhered to by the parochial school. . . . Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones display little insight into the confusion these divergent belief systems will have upon (the boy) as he ages," the bureau said in its report.

    It appears that the Domestic Relations Counseling Bureau wears its Christian's beliefs on its sleeves. I strongly suspect that this bureau has no problem with a proper Christian upbringing starting with infant baptisms.

    Anyone want to speculate the reaction from the conservative Christian groups if the said bureau ruled against what they consider a proper Christian upbringing, especially the label "divergent". Add in a atheist or Islamic leaning to said burea and that conflagration could be seen for miles.

    I suspect that the average Joe and Mary Q Public would see that the burea was wrong for that making that statement and the judge was wrong for prohibiting the parents from raising their child in their religious faith. I also suspect that the Publics would think that the bureau and the judge overstepped but would not demand their heads (since their heart was in the right place). Finally, the tolerance show by the Publics would likely not be extended to an anti-Christian bureau and judge. In this way, the Publics would be "coddling" religious "extremists" with whom they agree.
     
  6. Rockets2K

    Rockets2K Clutch Crew

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    It is rather obvious.

    It isnt a judge's place to determine what religion that a child should be exposed to.

    A non-mainstream religion?

    what...like Mormon's, or Jehovah's Witnesses?

    they arent very mainstream are they?

    and as long as the federals have given recognition to Wicca as a religion....it is every bit as valid a religion as the ones mentioned above.

    this will be overturned on appeal...
     
  7. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    Interesting perspective. Can we say as long as Chinese government has given recognition to Falun Gong as a religion ...
     
  8. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

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  9. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

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    Not necessarily. Indiana is pretty conservative so if he's an elected judge this might work in his favor even if it is overturned. On top of that Pricilla Owens has made some decisions that even other conservative judges have harshly criticized and the hasn't hurt her career.
     
  10. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

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    Thanks for the info.
     
  11. Mr. Brightside

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    If I want to worship Will Smith and his great achievements, its no one else's business.


    Wicca, Wicca, Wild Wild West!!
     
  12. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

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    We're all brothers in the House of the Fresh Prince..
     
  13. Rockets2K

    Rockets2K Clutch Crew

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    This got nothing to do with China...why do you even bring it up?

    call me dense...but I dont get your inference


    or was that just a lame attempt to call me out on my phrasing?

    if so...way to encourage folks to participate in here.:rolleyes:
     
  14. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    R2K, you took it too seriously. What I was trying to say is if people (in this BBS, specifically) have no problem with the statement* you made, then they should be readily to accept that Fanlun Gong is illegal (or invalid) in China - since Chinese government considers it a cult and has it outlawed.

    We haven't see anyone jumped out to challege your statement or my analogy. Apparently nobody cares much about religion. ;)

    *The statement is: "...as long as the federals have given recognition to Wicca as a religion....it is every bit as valid a religion as..."
     
  15. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Member

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    wnes;

    Except the PRC isn't governed according to the Constitutional standards that we have. That the US Gov. recognizes or doesn't recognize a religion has no bearing on whether the PRC does.
     
  16. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    I see resemblance between the two events. What Chinese government did to Falun Gong is what the judge did to the kid on a grandeur scale.
     
  17. dylan

    dylan Member

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    Obviously logic is not your forte. Saying that "if A then B" is not the same as "if not A then not B".
     
  18. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    Hehe, you forgot one exception - when A and B are suffcient and necessary conditions of one another.

    Based on what I have observed with regard to the said events, using a little poetic license should hardly cause any knee-jerking reaction.
     
    #18 wnes, May 30, 2005
    Last edited: May 30, 2005
  19. Doctor Robert

    Doctor Robert Member

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    China recognizes religions so it can ban their practice.
    The United States recognizes religions so they can accommodate them.

    Drawing parallels doesn't have any significance with the issue of this thread.
     
  20. MartianMan

    MartianMan Member

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    You really shouldn't comment on things you have no idea about, especially with the amount of Chinese people here.
     

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