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Jarrett Allen, the Rocket who isn't

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by topfive, Jan 14, 2021.

  1. ChillyPete32

    ChillyPete32 Member

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    Taking Dipo over Levert ended up being the wrong move, but idk if whatever we flipped him for this summer would have been all that much better than how the Dipo trade might turn out. Next year we could end up swapping out a late 20's pick for a mid to late teens pick. The potentially underrated aspect is that doing the Dipo trade also stopped Miami from trading for Lowry. I'm guessing Lowry wouldn't have shut it down for the season with the Heat and getting him might have moved our potential swapped for Miami pick this year (please basketball gods don't let that happen though) another 5 spots or so.
     
  2. DonatelloLimestone

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    I guess if you need the silver lining this stuff might help to learn some gymnastics. IT depends what you're trying to do, if you're reaching for positivity sure. Our house burned down, but they can't take away our memories and we still saved some photos, it helps. but if we're just objectively discussing the **** show of 90 percent of our moves last 3-4 years being cost cutting, including after the rebuilds, then its a different conversation
     
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  3. ChillyPete32

    ChillyPete32 Member

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    Your posts are too long for me to quote the whole thing my man, but I agree that timing matters. I remember in the Suns tax dodge days that were much more extreme than ours they had to attach like two firsts or something to Kurt Thomas to get rid of him then the Sonics flipped him for positive value a few months later despite absolutely no change in his production or league-wide value.

    On KPJ, it was obviously a total fluke but we also can't ever lose sight of the fact that we wouldn't have him if we'd kept Allen when playing the hindsight game.
     
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  4. ChillyPete32

    ChillyPete32 Member

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    Stone made the wrong call on Dipo. That goes on his ledger, even though I thought the rationale did make some sense. My point is it makes sense to evaluate our FO based on wrong calls, but getting too worked up about them when they don't materially change things doesn't seem like it should be a huge red mark on his ledger either. It's not like 1/100th of the Russ-CP3 trade.
     
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  5. DonatelloLimestone

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    Yea thats why Sarver is considered bottom of the barrell type of owner. He bought in much, much cheaper than ours too. I'd imagine this next wave of owners is going to raise the bar of the league and do away with the guys trying to put out products on a budget. Most of the new age owners have, including for small markets, we unfortunately don't have that case.

    Like you said it was a total fluke, but thats what my point is. This stuff isn't a thorough market search. We'd both argue that it should be, but the nba has never worked like that so thats why its not as clear as if allen could've gotten more, he would've. nets were desperately looking for another team bc we said we wanted a pick, of any case, rather than allen which can only mean we were worried about paying hiim, we also could've showcased and trade, sign adn trade, signed played and trade...yada yada for a young talent who has more promise and potential than most you will find at 24. Bucks were even projected to be 27-30th, so we got lucky on the 24th pick. Could it work out? sure, Stone has shown good promise on the draft boards, but was it optimal let alone for a rebuilding team who just needs assets. Don't agree.
     
  6. DonatelloLimestone

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    Honestly, in the rockets particular case. Just like how I don't evaluate Morey based on the last 3 years of him learning luxury tax gymnastics where 90 percent of our moves were to cut cost, I get that Stone is doing a job within the confines of our highly leveraged owner. I'd even argue hes doing a pretty good job with the young guys we got of which all of them were severely undervalued. So I think stone shows promise, we got a rookie gm and rooke coach, i'm not putting the onus on them when we have an owner who has mandated cost cutting during a contending team, it can't be that surprising that he would do so during this tank.

    Well what you learn about the russ or any trade that its a lot like dominos or building a jenga type of situation. Just like when we got chris paul it was a series of mediocre and undervalued talent that culminated at the right time and market to get us a superstar in paul. so those losing sight of all these ties end up getting some holes in their theories if they only look at recent history in my opinion. Its exhausting, I get it, but if we want to really 'get it' we can't ignore the past and the building blocks


    We signed Pete Chilcut in 94, traded him to Vancouver in 96 for Othella Harrington

    Relationship established? in 99 otherlla was included in a massive trade to get us...stevie franchise
    Jenga
     
  7. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member
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    Why would we not have him if we kept Allen?
     
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  8. ChillyPete32

    ChillyPete32 Member

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    The impetus for Cleveland to get rid of him was that he completely flipped out when they gave his locker to Taurean Prince. If Allen and Prince don't get routed to Cleveland, KPJ's locker probably doesn't get moved, he doesn't flip out, and we don't get him for basically nothing.
     
  9. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member
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    That makes no sense ,Allen did not have to be included in that trade, they could have done something else.

    And KPJ could have flipped on anybody that was traded to Cleveland or flipped out for anything else.

    I hear ya but its a bit of a reach to say Allen is the reason we got KPJ.
     
  10. HardenVolumeOne

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    all tilman cares about is expiring contracts.. exum, olynk and dipo were expiring thats all that mattered. tilman is gonna try and sign kelly but if we dont it wont be a big loss to him
     
  11. ChillyPete32

    ChillyPete32 Member

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    How does it not make sense? We were going to trade someone else to Cleveland without them getting Jarrett Allen?

    I agree it's possible that KPJ could have later flipped out or done something else as the final straw to end his time in Cleveland and maybe the same deal is there for us if/when that happens, but maybe it's not or maybe he gets his act together there. There's a pretty clear cause and effect. If you don't want to give credit to the FO for that and still give them a negative grade for deciding not to keep Allen then it's 100% warranted because it was a total fluke. But if you are going to hindsight where we'd be if we'd kept Allen it's not at all fair to acknowledge there's a pretty reasonable chance we would not have KPJ if we'd kept Allen.

    Same deal if we get Cade Cunningham, etc.
     
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  12. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member
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    My point really is KPJ was likely to go off at any time and for any other player they gave his locker too.

    Anyway not that big of a deal to harp on water under the bridge.
     
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  13. topfive

    topfive CF OG

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    Not to mention that we would have certainly flipped Allen at the trade deadline for a FRP. Odds are that pick would have been better than the Bucks' pick we ended up with. You can't say that Allen's presence might have led to more wins and given us worse odds at a lottery pick, because at the time nobody foresaw the team totally falling apart and "tanking" its way to last place.
     
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  14. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member
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    Don't read "Shut up and Listen" to understand Ferntit's strategy yall.

    Read former Clipper owner Donald Sterling's book "How I ran the franchise down and collected checks from the league"
     
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  15. ChillyPete32

    ChillyPete32 Member

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    It just depends on whether you are going to evaluate the decision making or the actual results. Because there's a pretty reasonable chance the opportunity cost was a top 4 pick, KPJ, and the #23 pick vs. whatever Allen fetched in return plus paying Prince $13 million next year and also paying the LT this year (Tilman's issue not ours as fans but still a real consideration).

    Also, who do you think is giving us a FRP at the deadline that's much better than the #23 pick? 4 games basically separated the #22 pick and what I guess you call the #15 pick (Grizzlies). If Allen is that great he might make up those four games.

    To get a team below that it would either be a play-in team or a lotto team. Maybe one of those teams like the Raptors would do it, but with the contract extension required and that pushing teams over the cap or into the tax it's not a certainty.

    I think it's more likely that he would fetch more over the summer in an S&T, but even then I'm still not sure it's going to be much better than the #23 pick.
     
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  16. ChillyPete32

    ChillyPete32 Member

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    Money surely factored into preferring the Bucks pick over Allen and Prince, but not Dipo over Levert. When the trade was agreed to you could assume Levert could have easily been traded into space this summer with some sort of draft compensation coming back at worst if there was a goal just to get him off the books. We also offered Dipo an extension with more years and more annual money than Levert was owed.

    Dipo was almost certainly an upside gamble that he would regain his pre-injury form and either have legitimate value in a trade at the deadline to someone who wanted his bird rights or in the offseason as an S&T or possibly mesh with the current roster, make the playoffs, and re-sign with a retool rebuild having the Nets picks as lottery tickets rather than bottoming out. It obviously didn't work out that way, though.
     
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  17. BigBum

    BigBum Member

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    Keep Allen, LeVert and Prince = next season playoffs team

    Stone is going to regret if Tilman wants to make playoffs next year.

    Bucks pick isn’t good.
     
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  18. ashleyem

    ashleyem Team Green

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    I am sure they shopped around, and a first round pick is Allen’s value. Allen doesn’t fit Silas’ 5 out offense and isn’t our long term solution either.
     
  19. D-rock

    D-rock Member

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    Porter would have flipped out over something else, he felt slighted and distanced from team.

    He did not play a minute this season nor did he even practice with the Cavs, he was on his way out and he knew it.

    The locker crap was simply convenient, he would have blown up over something else because he was simmering.
     
  20. ChillyPete32

    ChillyPete32 Member

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    I agree he was a ticking bomb there. But he got traded to us on January 22nd. That's 19 days until the G League bubble started on February 10th. If he makes it that long and joins up with the Cavs G League team and plays great there's absolutely no guaranty that trade where we get him for nothing is still there on the table. Maybe they still shop him, but we aren't literally the only team whose interest in him is greater than zero at that point. Or if he has a worse meltdown than the food throwing or whatever and we've got a good thing going with our roster with Allen or whatever maybe we don't jump on him at that point.

    Maybe we still wind up with him if we keep Allen. Maybe we don't. Since KPJ on his rookie deal + Pick #23 this year>>>4/100 for Jarrett Allen + 12 next year for Prince given where our rebuild is (and that's not including the tanking side benefit too) if I could go back and undo that trade and have to take my chances that we still get KPJ I definitely would not.
     
    #360 ChillyPete32, May 20, 2021
    Last edited: May 20, 2021

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