Japanese War shrine visit thread

What does the former 76'ers coach have to do with the Japanese War Shrine?

 

Why is suddenly SamFisher acting like a mod in GARM?

 

I haven't been spending much time in the GARM but if its turning into the D & D I might just have to. Of course these days there's far more poo flinging in GARM.

 

What I really wanna know is why Japan is exempt for memorializing its atrocities during and before WWII while Germany would never be allowed such a luxury? What, Japan's victims were not worthy enough? Or is it because they have no real remorse, whereas the Germans have shown remorse and have gone over and beyond in doing so?

Wrong thread...may be?

 

Why do southerners visit civil war memorials and battlefields?

Is it because they want slavery back?

OR

is it because it is part of their history and their forefathers were killed in those battles?

 

If the Japanese government would formally apologize and acknowledge the war crimes, would the Chinese be as upset over the visits?

In my mind if that would be the best possible solution if it would work. There is an element of visiting the shrine that involves revering past ancestors. People in Germany are able to express their appreciation of soldiers in WWII who felt they were protecting their country, while denouncing the whole Nazi Party and it's militarism.

 

Actually the Japanese government has apologized but they still continue to downplay their wartime history. Japanese educational and cultural material more often portray themselves as the victims of aggression from the nuclear bombings than they look into their own wartime history.

If Japan did the type of soul searching that the Germans did it might ammeliorate some of the anger but probably not all. Japan's relations with the PRC at a low point over several issues. At the same time anger over the visits to the shrines isn't limited to Chinese but is considered offensive by many other Asian countries who were under Japanese occupation.

 

That's the point. When the government of Japan continues to deny or brush over its 'inconvenient' past by indoctrinating future generations -- through public education and other means -- to think that nothing wrong was done, then there is a problem.

 

Let me ask this then:

What are the minimium conditions that must be satisfied to allow the prime minister to visit the Shinto shrine without starting a round of massive protests in China?

 

Japanese government never really apologized for war crime. They did say that they regret that they brought inconvenience to other Asian countries. You might consider that as an apology for steping on someone's foot, but not an apology for tens of millions lost lives due to war crimes.

They did not downplay wartime history, but rather balantly lied about it. "They entered China and other Asian countries to liberate those people from Western colonization", as stated in some of their history books.

Holy Shrine was not a problem. But secretly sneaking those 14 executed class A war cirminals in the 70's (or 60's?) has been a big problem since. Nobody will be upset if German Kanzler visits memorials for lost soldiers in WWII. But everyone will be outraged, if German Kanzler puts Hitler, Goering, and Heimlich in those memorials, and then visits them regularly.

 

Pretty simple, just move those 14 class A war criminals out. He can visit there everyday, or even live there.

 

otto, it's not just the Chinese who are protesting.

 

They first need to be convinced that 'war crimes' were committed, and own up it, then offer up a sincere apology to those who suffered at the hands of the Japanese empire, and then take out the names of those war criminals at the war shrine.

That would a good start...

 

I think that the feelings of the German people about their past, and the sense of shame they feel, is very real, and that there is not an attempt to finesse it, to make excuses, or to rewrite history in the process. I'll give a personal anecdote, not that anyone will be interested.

About 20 years ago, my wife and I were visiting the Netherlands, where she has numerous relatives, some of whom have vivid memories of the Nazi occupation (which would be another anecdote, lol!). We met a young German couple at our little 450 year old hotel in Amsterdam, and found that we got along famously with them. They expressed a desire to visit the Anne Frank house. We had been there previously, but not in some time, and agreed to go... it's a moving and fascinating experience. While we were there, they both began crying. I mean, really crying, and shaking their heads, and saying, "How could we have had anything to do with this? How? It's unbelievable!"

Yes, it's a personal anecdote, but I've never forgotten the incident. It was completely spontaneous, and very, very moving, as anyone who's been there might imagine. The Japanese could learn a great deal from the German people about addressing their past. We all could.



Keep D&D Civil.

 

Got to watch out for that Heimlich. He’s really good at maneuvering.

I think you either mean Reinhard Heydrich or Heinrich Himmler.

I'm not making fun of you. I understand how those names all run together after awhile. I just thought the image it provoked was amusing.

 

My bad I was confused, wasn't sure whether it's Heinrich or Heimlich. It's been too long since I last visited that piece of history.

 

Germany's atrocities reinforce the collective Western shame for 1900+ years of religiously, politically and culturally sanctioned anti-Semitism. Also, considering a large portion of the victims in this case are Chinese, I wonder if they don't have larger issues with their own government's atrocities, like the Great Leap Forward or Tianemen Square. Oh, and we wiped out two of their cities, so we don't feel as comfortable guilting them about war atrocities (apples and oranges notwithstanding).