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James Harden's Brooklyn Nets

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by jerryclark, Jan 13, 2021.

  1. rockets1995

    rockets1995 Member

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    No matter how much Analytics is being used, Midrange is a big part of success in the Playoffs even in the beginning Era of Basketball there was no 3 point line. In the 1950s

    It was just a Midrange shot and Post Ups.

    Analytics won't change basketball. The Players lack of height changed basketball.
    Now it is more Positionless.
     
  2. RHU525

    RHU525 Member
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    If there was ever a sport that could spin off without owners it is the NBA. I'm actually kinda shocked it hasn't happened yet but you see how much power the players have and the owners know it. Look at all the BLM stuff that happened in the bubble. No other league allowed that. NBA is such a star driven league where 1 player makes a huge difference. If the top 30 players left and decided to make their own league they would be fine. They all have the connections to the media now and have their own businesses etc. They could rent out stadiums or college arenas for pennies on the dollar for what the owners get. Everyone would watch the new league.
     
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  3. Easy

    Easy Very Calm
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    Harden didn't suck at midrange. He just stopped doing it, presumably due to our offensive strategy. Or maybe it also has something to do with his having mastered the step-back 3 which is unguardable one on one.
     
  4. jordnnnn

    jordnnnn Member

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    Not really accurate.

    Just looking over the year by year numbers he was shooting like 37-41% from mid range during his time with the Rockets.

    That’s not good.

    Meanwhile your Durant’s and CP3s are shooting near 50% on those shots.
     
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  5. steddinotayto

    steddinotayto Contributing Member

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    That's a pretty subjective way to look at it considering the league average on midrange shots over the past few years have been around 38%. Harden's not elite at the mid-range but his numbers as a Rocket between 10 ft and the 3 point line has been mostly average to above average

    https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01.html

    Some years he was damn good at it, putting up 44% and 46% between 10ft and 16 ft.
     
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  6. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    all I'm saying Rockets took a lot of three's because that's what Morey wanted. Even Morey still swore by it the following season.
     
  7. jordnnnn

    jordnnnn Member

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    https://www.nba.com/stats/players/shooting/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular Season&DistanceRange=By Zone&sort=Mid-Range FGA&dir=1

    You can go year by year and see plenty of the higher volume mid range guys shooting 45%+ and the elites shooting 50%+. Harden was generally in the high 30s low 40s.

    But that is the point. It’s not a good shot if you aren’t elite.

    The mid range isn’t a shot for the slightly below average, average or slightly above average shooter to use very often. Which is what Harden was and why he didn’t feature it.
     
    #5687 jordnnnn, Sep 22, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
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  8. steddinotayto

    steddinotayto Contributing Member

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    Could we apply your logic to 3 point shooting? Because, by and large, Harden was an average 3 point shooter (when compared to league average %s) for most of his time in Houston. Should he not have featured that shot either?
     
  9. Juxtaposed Jolt

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    Hasn't happened yet because the non-top 30 players can't do much without the top 30 players doing something, and the top 30 players are all pretty much extremely comfortable with how much they're earning.

    Could they earn more? Most likely. But an extra 5-10M per year (on average) doesn't matter that much when you're already earning 25M+ a year.

    And again, it would take all the top players to dip. Not just a quad of LeBron + Harden + Durant + Giannis or whatever combo there is.
     
  10. jordnnnn

    jordnnnn Member

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    His NBA average 3 point shot attempts were gaining the team ~1.09 points

    His NBA average mid range shot attempts were gaining the team ~0.8 points

    I think that’s a very good reason to feature one shot over the other. As often as you can.

    Edit : And that leaves out all of the 3 point attempts Harden had where a foul was drawn and he missed the shot. And he alone had more fouls drawn on 3s then any team combined did during his time here.
     
    #5690 jordnnnn, Sep 22, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
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  11. steddinotayto

    steddinotayto Contributing Member

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    Which is what @Easy what saying earlier when you replied back to him by saying it's not an accurate assessment that Harden moved away from the mid-range because the 3 our offensive system and, essentially, worth more but rather because Harden was "not good" at the midrange (which in actuality he's been average to above average).

    I'm not going to dispute the numbers NBA.com posted because that would be very stupid of me but looking at Harden's shot charts over the years:

    https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/james-harden-career-shot-chart-by-season

    Some areas he was bad in but there were areas in the mid range where he excelled at, particular around the ft line. I'll concede and say that his shooting % had a higher variance within the midrange than his % at the 3 throughout his career though.
     
  12. jordnnnn

    jordnnnn Member

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    I guess, technically, if the NBA average on all mid range jumpers is 40% and the player in question shoots 40% you can’t consider him “bad” at it.

    I just look at it like this. There are only so many players in the NBA, based on the value of the shot, that should be taking mid range shots with any kind of regularity.

    Because Hardens shooting % on those shots is what it is I don’t think he belongs in that category of players who should feature the shot.

    And when you group him together with only the guys who are taking the mid range shot with volume and rate them from “good” to “bad” he would be on the “bad” end.
     
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  13. astrosrule

    astrosrule Member

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    just because something didn't work because of something outside of their control, doesn't mean it was the incorrect strategy. Foster can take away midrangers the same way he took away 3s, and you're not beating the warriors with 2s anyway
     
  14. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    I guess I'm not a big fan that extreme/hardline threes or layups or nothing philosophy

    I'd rather have most threes/most layups/some midrage/no long twos
     
  15. LabMouse

    LabMouse Member

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    Harden is a shooting guard who can make a free throw and three point shot at a high percentage. There is no any implication that he can not make a middle range jump with 50% percentage or over if Morey's basketball philosophy was to take more two point jump rather than taking three and driving into the basket.
     
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  16. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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  17. astrosrule

    astrosrule Member

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    it's fine to disagree with the math but you're also talking about playing by far the greatest team in nba history that destroyed everyone else they played, except that one rockets team
     
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  18. RKREBORN

    RKREBORN Member

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    Leading people to strip clubs probably..
     
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  19. wekko368

    wekko368 Member

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    Incorrect. The owners could've quashed it, but why would they? Players wearing BLM slogans on their jerseys don't negatively impact the owners.

    I think your perspective if far too simplistic. The owners have established brands, teams, infrastructure, history, and media relationships. The players don't. Why would a college prospect ever choose to play in a players' league instead of the NBA? Why would fans watch a players' league instead of their home team?
     
  20. Easy

    Easy Very Calm
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    The point was not that the midrange was a better shot than the 3. The point was that Harden was not a bad midrange shooter, which is true.

    I believe that he stopped shooting the midrange because the Rockets wanted the team to shoot 3s as the best shot. I have always argued that it is not wrong to emphasize the benefit of the 3pt shot. But to abandon the midrange almost entirely is like a football team abandoning the running plays. Even if passing is far more efficient than running, you need to mix in the running plays to make your passing plays more effective.
     

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