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Jaden Ivey Will Be The Pick, I Guarantee It!

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by ghettocheeze, May 19, 2022.

  1. krosfyah

    krosfyah Contributing Member

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    I'm not comparing Ivey to KPJ or Green. I'm comparing Ivey to Smith and Banchero. That is the choice at hand.

    If Green was in this year's draft, I think Green goes #1. But he's not.
     
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  2. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    Well, almost everyone thinks that BPA IS a player of need, there are 3 bigs at the top of this draft, the Rockets are picking 3rd.

    I'm willing to entertain those who disagree and think that Ivey might edge one of those bigs out, but if I do that, I run into the inescapable fact that the Rockets already have 2 guards on the roster who are about the same age as Ivey and better at literally everything on a basketball court. That specific scenario changes the "BPA" analysis. In those situations we'd have to be talking about an absolutely amazing talent who rises above all others available, otherwise the "tie" goes to the palyer at a position of need.....or to be more specific, the one that would be better that the starter in at least one position on the court.

    As to Banchero and Sengun, they play different positions.

    Sengun is more of a C and Bancharo is more of a PF, so it's not the same at all. Ivey is a SG, Green is a SG.
     
  3. krosfyah

    krosfyah Contributing Member

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    BPA. You honestly telling me you've never heard of that concept?

    Same reason we took Chris Paul and James Harden to game 7 of the WCF. I'll take great players over players that fit. That said, of course you want all of the above. You want great players and then surround them with players that fit. But at #3, I'm not drafting for fit. I'm trying to find the next generational player ...and I don't think Smith or Banchero is that player. Again, just my opinion. Feel free to disagree but it's silly to suggest I'm somehow less than for holding such an opinion.
     
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  4. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    Yeah, but you have to do both comparisons. In order to come away thinking Ivey is the guy, you need to think both that he's head and shoulders better than Smith and Bancharo AND that he's better than KPJ or Green.

    To me, I struggle to see either scenario.

    I think it's fairly close between Bancharo and Ivey, arguments can be made both ways. So then I move on to the next part of the analysis and I see that the Rockets have 2 starters who are both better than Ivey at literally everything so that tips the scale to Bancharo.
     
  5. Stephen_A

    Stephen_A Member

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    On the topic of 2 dynamic guards not being able to play together, I think there was a reason Silas tinkered with a 3 guard lineup late in the season with KPJ, Green, and Nix on the court at the same time. Its an interesting lineup since KPJ was playing 3/combo guard. Nix brought ball up the court and controlled the tempo then deferred to Green and KPJ for the most part. Interesting since the sets run with a ball handler thats not KPJ allowing him to make plays at the wing or spot up shoot. Nix played a similar role as Marcus Smart with their big 2 in Tatum and Brown except Smart is better at that role and more aggressive. The KPJ dilemma is interesting to me. So many unknowns with this team.
     
  6. krosfyah

    krosfyah Contributing Member

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    Sengun, 6'10", 243lb
    Bancharo, 6'10", 250

    Again, looking at the Rockets between 2012 - 2016, only two players remained. James Harden and Patrick Beverly. So no, I don't draft based on need. I take BPA.
     
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  7. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    LOL, how though?

    Green and Ivey are literally the worst fit in that group. They play the EXACT same position and Ivey is not someone you want running the point AND he doesn't have the shooting ability to play off ball.

    If you want Green to run the point, KPJ is better off ball than Ivey.

    If you want Green to be able to play off ball a bit, KPJ is better running the point.

    Help me understand your rankings.
     
  8. krosfyah

    krosfyah Contributing Member

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    Bancharo is a ball dominant PF. He needs to ball in his hands and he doesn't do much else. Not a good shot blocker, rebounder, defender, etc. He's a scorer. On a bad team, he'll excel as a scorer. I simply don't see him as a #1 or #2 option on a championship caliber team. Just my opinion.

    Smith will be an amazing #4 option on a championship caliber team. Just not worth a top pick, for me.

    Just my opinion, dude. Take it or leave it. I concede your point that we have to fit in another guard onto this roster. It's doable.
     
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  9. Stephen_A

    Stephen_A Member

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    I never said you were less than anything did I? You feel that way on your own. Im trying to understand your point. The CP3 example isn’t the same as Ivey and Green. Ivey isn’t a pg. ive asked you to clarify but you still haven’t answered me. Historically 2 dynamic guards meaning 2 athletic scoring combo guard types playing together have not had much success in the NBA. CP3 is s true pg making plays to set up other players and he fulfills that role as a facilitator. He can also shoot that midrange or take it to the paint if he has an opening but by no means is CP3 a scorer or has a scoring mentality. And even that pairing didn’t work out since there were ball sharing issues with Harden. And my point in the earlier post was usually if you have a dynamic scoring combo guard you pair it with a less dynamic guard usually solid defensively, doesn’t need the ball as he plays offball, and understands his role and does it well. Look at the playoff teams and they all have this balance. Ivey and Green wouldn’t have that balance.
     
  10. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    That's such a short sighted way of looking at it.

    Chuck Hayes was 6'6 250....what position did he play?

    Tate is 6'4 230.....what position does he play?

    Dwight Howard was 6'10 265......what position did he play?

    Magic Johnson was 6'9 220.....what position did he play?

    You have to look at more than height and weight to determine what position a player plays.
     
  11. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    Okay, and Ivey is a ball dominant SG. He needs the ball in his hands and he doesn't do much else. Not a good shot blocker, rebounder, defender, ect. He's a scorer.....and not a PG.

    So again, how is that not a worse fit and arguably a worse prospect?

    That's the disconnect here. Anything you can say about Bancharo, I can say about Ivey...only it's worse because he also doesn't fit on the team.
     
  12. ball king23

    ball king23 Member

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    bro you are making it hard for me on that one Jaden Ivey is a good point but my only question is with picking him is he would be buried with porter jr and Schroder at point but i think if we were to pick a point it would have to be him but not at 3 I would look at and maybe if a trade up scenario for ty ty Washington if that was my pick for trading up just my opinion. but at 3 i am sticking with PAOLO BANCHERO
     
  13. krosfyah

    krosfyah Contributing Member

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    You might be right but Bancharo doesn't provide that balance either. He's a ball dominant PF.

    Using that logic, Smith is an ideal fit next to Green, KPJ, and Sengun. I just don't think he'll ever be a franchise player. He might make an all-star team once, at best.

    So if Bancharo and Smith both flame out in their respective careers, or at least they don't live up to their draft status, and Ivey turns into a very good SG then at least we'd have a good trade chip.

    I repeat, the Rockets are not contenders. As such, you take BPA. In my opinion, and I could be wrong, Ivey will be a better player than Smith and Bancharo. I don't understand why that is a hard concept for everybody here. lol. It's just my opinion and I doubt Stone shares my opinion. However, @ghettocheeze shares my opinion. :p
     
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  14. krosfyah

    krosfyah Contributing Member

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    I simply think Ivey will be a better player than Bancharo. That is all.
     
  15. ghettocheeze

    ghettocheeze Member

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    I've read through 10 pages of Clutchfans haters, whiners, and crybabies all talking about why they think this guy or that guy is a better fit and is desperately needed ... on a team that barely won 20 games.

    Man, I would gut this entire team in a heartbeat if it meant I got the best player in the draft regardless of fit or need. That's the whole point of tanking and rebuilding.

    So, when I hear KPJ homers whining about too many guards or random posts talking about the need for size, I can't help but laugh. You guys are missing the big picture entirely. Drafting based on need or wishful thinking is the surest way to lose a rebuild. The NBA is littered with teams who have fallen victim to such thinking. That's how you end up taking Bagley over Doncic or Lonzo over Tatum, because you think you got Fox and Hield or Ingram and Randle, so you draft based on wishful thinking.

    The whole point of tanking is to have highest chance of finding the best player with the greatest potential to be become a superstar, and then you figure out how to balance the roster and address needs later. You may even have to hire a new coach and build a new system to maximize that superstar talent. You don't go into a tank with any preconceived notions of what you want.

    I would happily turnover this entire roster to build with Green and Ivey today.
     
  16. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    Who cares about where they started, you said bigmen and then left these guys off your list, Banchero and Smith are not centers so?

    So if we draft the Draymond at 3 that somehow makes it not a great pick?
     
  17. xaos

    xaos Member

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    Agreed

    Same goes for Green and
    Banchero/Smith/Chet

    Doesn't mean I don't like Sengun/JC/etc either

    In fact I really like Josh and Sengun a lot
     
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  18. Stephen_A

    Stephen_A Member

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    Dude I agree with you in terms of Ivey’s talent. I actually have him and Keegan Murray top of my list as most talented. I do think he will be a star. I don’t like Banchero and Chet is too much of a wild card. I agree Smith may not be a franchise player but he can be great if he simplifies his game. He could be Klay Thompson. If the Rockets take Ivey it could be in a trade situation and the Rockets could then take Murray etc. I personally like Murray but wouldn’t be too upset if they draft Smith. But based on history and team dynamics Ivey and Green wouldn’t be a good fit together unless they have a tough wing guy that can play point, defend, and shoot 3s. But the balance isn’t there for me. We agree to disagree
     
  19. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    Uh what?

    The people whining about Ivey are Green fans, is there even such a thing as a KPJ homer?

    I know this will not go over well but we don't know if Green is actually the "guy" yet so you are doing the same thing everybody else is by claiming we know who we need to build around.
     
  20. krosfyah

    krosfyah Contributing Member

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    Say we draft Chet, Sengun starts at PF. Sengun is an amazing passer, not an amazing shot blocker or rebounder.

    Chuck Hayes was a PF, always was. We just moved him to C because we didn't have anybody else and it turned out that somehow he could hold his own cause he was an amazing defender ...something nobody has ever accused Sengun of.

    If Sengun is our starting C of the future, we are in trouble.
     

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