checkmate? I am still waiting for this mythical player who is more valuable than Battier that we can obtain.
He's averaging similar #s in Orlando so your argument about different systems doesn't hold much weight. Also, don't indict Pietrus for GState's lack of defense. He has always done his job and been a good defender. I don't hate anybody, why do Battier posters get so emotional and attack the poster instead of sticking to the issue? People like you, who admit that they're bias, have somehow convinced themselves that Battier is a one of a kind role player when in reality he's not. Guys (both currently and historically) that have performed similar roles and functions as Battier (and many who have flat out just been better players) are acquired through minor transactions and free agency. Here's one example, Michael Cooper, a better offensive and defensive player than Battier, was acquired by the Lakers in the 3rd round (yes, 3rd round) of the 1978 draft. If the Lakers didn't have a Michael Cooper type of player, they would not have given up a lottery pick to get that type of player. Then again, the Lakers have a lot more championships than the Rockets. Part of that is due to intelligent decision making. All I want is for Battier to become the 15-20 mpg bench player that he is. His role should be situational and dependent on the competition. His offensive impotence doesn't warrant over 30 to 35 mpg. Once McGrady is traded for a backup center and another wing player, Battier will hopefully go the bench where he belongs. My problem is that delusional people make Battier into something more than he is. I never made the A), B), and C) comments. All I and many others have said all along is that the Rockets overpaid for Battier. A), B), and C) are your interpretations of my aforementioned comment. So I was following YOUR arbitrary criteria. What you're trying to do is make the conditions so difficult and the criteria so rigid in answering your question that when I do give you an answer you and others like you can come in and ridicule me. Unlike you I didn't plead ignorance and take the lazy way out. When are you going to acknowledge the fact that guys like him are acquired through free agency and minor transactions? If a lottery pick can land you Ray Allen and a late first rounder can get you Ron Artest, you have to be delusional to believe that you couldnt've have gotten more for a lottery pick than Shane Battier. Look you can try to look for anything to make Battier look good, but the fact remains that I answered your question and provided you with a player that met all YOUR criteria. So his shooting % was lower than Battier's, what about the fact that he played less mpg and scored more pts? What about the fact that he can actually dribble a basketball? That's an intangible, right? What about the fact that he can cut and slash to the basket in addition to the 3 pt shot? What about the fact that he's strong and athletic unlike Shane? What about his strong finishing around the basket? What about his salary which is and was less than Shane's? What about the fact that, at worst, he was comparable to Battier, but yet, he was younger, cheaper, and had more upside? Maybe you didn't watch bball back then, but Pietrus has always been considered a solid defender. He played good D when Golden State upset Dallas in the first rd in 06-07 for example. You only factored in what you wanted to when "analyzing" Pietrus vs Shane. Now you may say the same thing of me, but look at all the areas listed above where Pietrus has had an advantage over Battier. Also, Pietrus is somebody you've always had to guard on offense while Battier is often ignored by his defender, but there's no stat to measure that. Why not? I wouldn't either if I was you, because it makes you look silly and it shows what a lottery pick can get you. How do you know what was available? We don't know how rigorously the Rockets shopped the pick. If they did a thorough job, I'm sure they could've gotten more for a lottery pick than a role player who's normally acquired through minor transactions or free agency. It's just an example to illustrate that the Rockets overpaid for a role player. Again, Ron Artest was acquired for a late 1st rounder. It was not an intelligent decision by the Rockets to trade a lottery pick for Battier even if you factor in Swift's contract. At the very least, they could've asked for Memphis's 1st rd pick that year (Lowry). They overpaid and blind Battier supporters will not acknowledge that. You, in particular, fail to see that with your "you're willing to pay more for something you want" argument. So if I want an IPOD should I go pay $500 for it in my haste to purchase that product or should I shop around a little at least for the best bargain? Not doing so would be stupid. Are you going to acknowledge that the Rockets overpaid for Battier? Again, I don't know if you followed bball back then, but Pietrus's displeasure with his role on GState didn't emerge spontaneously. It was a process that developed over time. He was unhappy for a while. He contained his dismay at first then he began to tacitly mention it here and there in the media, and finally when nothing happened, he demanded a trade. Apparently, teams did want Pietrus (which demonstrates his value back then), but you would have to ask Golden State why he wasn't moved. They've been guilty of making poor decisions too. Maybe the Warriors front office was looking for a sucker like the Houston Rockets so that they could get a lottery pick for Pietrus. Gstate was at the very least probably looking for a 1st rd draft pick and all Miami and others were going to give them was probably a scrub or a role player of lesser value instead and they realized Pietrus's value - especially since he played a positive role in their historic defeat of Dallas in the playoffs and rebuffed those trade proposals. At least, the other teams were smart enough not to overpay for a Battier-type player unlike the Rockets. The fact of the matter is we don't know what was offered for Pietrus, but we do know there was interest from multiple teams, which says a lot. I think any rational basketball fan would agree that if Ron Artest can be had for a late 1st rounder and Ray Allen can be had for a lottery pick, then you can get players like Pietrus and Battier for, at the most, a low 1st round pick. In the end, you know I've answered your question and you're just playing semantics. Leebigez provided you with another player that meets all your arbitrary criteria in Josh Childress. But you pled ignorance as usual by saying you don't remember. I'm being very conservative here, but Childress is at least comparable to Battier, but the Hawks let him go to sign in Greece. It's highly probable that a future 1st rounder (which wouldnt've been a lottery pick) could have landed you Childress so that the Hawks would've at least gotten something for him instead of letting him go for nothing, which they did. He was available as you yourself admit due to the high # of swingmen on their roster. So Childress is another guy. You still won't answer the question of what you think the Rockets would be able to get for Battier in a trade. I've answered your questions and I've listed a few questions in this post so now please answer mine. What would the Rockets be able to get for Battier in a trade currently with his value sky high? Just like you asked me to name specific players, I'm asking you to do the same. Please keep in mind that the Rockets were a good defensive team before Battier got here. What can the Rockets get for him? Can we get a Rudy Gay type player for him? Would Phoenix give up their late lottery pick for him? You can analyze all the hypothetical scenarios you want in your answer whether the team is young and rebuilding, a perennial lottery team, a contender, a team that had a bad season for whatever reason and missed the playoffs etc... but I do want specific players. This way we can tackle the issue of Battier's market value. In addition the questions above, I've asked you this on a few occasions and you've taken the lazy way out, but why is it that Battier had more fta attempts in his 1st year with the Griz than his entire career as a Houston Rocket? All the other guys that play similar roles to Battier both historically and currently have improved since they've been in the league, why hasn't Battier and also why has he in some ways regressed? Is it wise to give up a lottery pick for a guy who hit his ceiling sometime in college and will not improve as a basketball player anymore and will instead regress? Last, in light of the previous few sentences and our knowledge that Battier makes more $ than players who perform similar roles and functions and the high cost that was paid to acquire him (while others have been had through free agency and minor transactions), is he really a better value than the Bowen (in his prime), Ariza, Pietrus, and Poseys of the NBA and why?
Its not really shane's fault, but I think that was a move that if they had to do it over again, I don't think they would do it. I mean the wizards got jamison for the devin harris lotto pick. I think morey being new to the game and trying to stamp the team made a mistake. We're all human and we make them all the time, but I can't see dumars or west giving up the 8th pick for a shane type of player. I mean the really good gm's feel like they can get good players anywhere in the draft. That's not to say they don't all make mistakes, but I can't see them making that kind of move. Hell, west traded a established guy in vlade for a high schooler because he felt vlade wouldn't take that next step..
A) were all around better B) Made less money and C) Had lower values And you say I'm the liar? And that's mostly just from one anti- shane thread you've posted in, imagine if I could find them all.. You see, you keep refering to deals suchs as ray allen's and ron's as the norm, when they are the exception. you believe that just because they were acquired FOR LESS than they are worth that those deals are available all the time. I'm surprised you haven't brought up the Gasol deal, or even Kobe for Vlade. The truth is those deals arent always on the table, if they are, it's rare and because someone is forcing someone out and they're trying to get as much as they can even if it's not equal value. Sometimes you just have to be lucky, houston probably couldn't have swung the ron deal if the kings didn't like Greene, and that was mainly because he was blowing up in summer league and therefore showing some promise...there's also the jackson expiring contract, it's not as simple as "a couple of first round picks" as you write. if you look at when he was traded from chicago to Indiana: "Artest, Ron Mercer, Brad Miller and Kevin Ollie to the Indiana Pacers for Jalen Rose, Travis Best, Norman Richardson and a future second-round draft pick" Then you could say we got robbed because in that chicago trade Rons value is lower than greene, a first rounder, and bobby jax..he got traded with Brad Miller and Mercer, who at the time was a decent role guy, for Jalen, a role guy, a scrub and a second rounder. This just goes to show you that the value of players change because the NBA is a business. In a perfect league we could trade equal value back and forth and trades would never be one sided and an all-star would always be traded for an all-star and a scrub for srub, but that's not the way it works, players aren't awlays available and they surely don't always have FIXED VALUE, which you still don't get. Look at what Jersey gave up for Vince Carter....Eric Williams, Aaron Williams, and an alonzo Mouring who wasn't going to play...That was Carter's value at the time, not even one active all star, not even a semi-star....yet the Nets could probably turn around this year and trade him for another similar star...value changes depending on what you need, what is available, etc. Also, you talk about what Pietrus can do, but that's what we know he can do now consistently. It wasn't a fact back then, he could have easily faded away after having a good year and he almost did : "Problem is, Golden State has little incentive to make a deal it doesn't like, and its executives still view Pietrus as an important part of the team, if he can return to last season's level of play" That's refering to the season you're raving about. He actually declined in level of play the next year, which goes back to what i said about him not being established completely. You don't trade for someone like that when you want someone to play a big role and you think you're gonna win now. And i've actually acknowledged they overpaid for Shane, that's why i brought up that analogy about overpaying for something you need. And its not about overpaying just because you're in a hurry, sometimes yes, but it's also because you can't find what you want elsewhere. I'm sure a lot of us on here have paid extra for something we needed and couldn't find more or for something we needed right away? the rockets were up against the clock on draft day, they didn't have an unlimited amount of time, just like the roy deal broke down that day other deals get affected, if they shopped around and couldn't find the guy they wanted for a better deal and they felt shane was worth the pick since it would give them a guy they wanted next to the big two, then although they overpaid, it's worth it to them. You once again have to take into consideration that they also got rid of swift and apparently that gave them flexibility for other moves later, so again, it's a business, you're not exactly trading basketball cards with buddies..... And yes, Pietrus displeasure developed over time, THE YEAR AFTER THE SHANE TRADE. That's my point, pietrus had no intentions of leaving in 06 and Gs had no intentions of trading him so how the hell could he be avilable to houston in place of shane? It was the next year that he was upset, demanded a trade, then that summer he made up with them and wanted to stay, it's all int he quotes i provided, you know, actual proof.. Childress? One, you never mentioned him, EVER. You're jumping on it now to save your argument, like you normally do. And Leebigez never said he was avilable, he said it's a plyer he was hoping Houston would look at at that time, which is why i replied and asked him if Childress was even available then.... Seriously, just stick to the truth, argue that shane isn't aggressive enough, argue his shot was horrible most of the year, argue THAT, don't go and add other things that you're not even sure of just to make your case against shane bigger and badder, it's pointless and that's what makes you a hater and not just someone who's truly looking out for the team.
Hater = anyone who disagrees with your unwavering opinion. And uses logic to enlighten you or at least get you to expand your narrow perspective. Yep, Kwame is a hater.
What should we look for in exchange for Battier? Not sure how realistic it is, but in the Offseason Trades thread I suggested Battier + Landry for Ginobili. Any better ideas out there?
that's actually not a bad proposal, i hadn't read it before. We'd still have scola and could hopefully pick up a PF/C to keep some dept at PF....Manu would still do a good job on D...i'm just worried about his injuries and how they'll affect his game.
It is definitely a gamble. And I don't know how Ginobili's body would respond to a starter's role. But to get a player of his caliber, I think its worth it.
Landry can't be traded until September or October anyway, so maybe we just wait to see him in action.
Exactly, the Rockets made a mistake and most people can't accept or admit that. Their emotion is blinding them to this. The problem is when you have people like Pizza Da Hut, VictorLHugo, and many others that have elevated Battier to a mythical status when role players like him are readily available through minor transactions or free agency. How many times in this thread and the other Shane threads have we heard that he's untradeable? Are you kidding me?!?! A role player like Battier is untradeable?!?! These people fail to understand that he's a role player that has zero offensive game besides the corner 3 and somehow he's untouchable to them. These people are delusional. Another trend I see is when you bring up comparable players the blind Battier fanatics immediately start denigrating the player in question just to make Shane look good. Your question was answered by me and leebigez. You were given 2 players (Pietrus and Childress) that were available that, at the very least, are comparable to Battier and were and still are younger, more athletic, more dangerous offensively, had and still have more upside, and make less $. Just because Pietrus's unhappiness wasn't public when Shane was traded doesn't mean it wasn't there. But lets assume you're correct, I'm sure the Rockets could've had either player for a late 1st rd pick at the most. This is evidenced by the fact that GState let Pietrus go for nothing and so did Atlanta with Childress. At least you admit the Rockets overpaid for Battier. Acknowledging that is a big and probably painful step for you. Now you say that the Allen and Artest trades are rare exceptions. What you fail to understand is that the Rockets made a mistake and were stupid for doing so. When you have an asset like a lottery pick, you maximize that asset. Read leebigez's post when he mentions that Washington got Antawn Jamison, a player who's almost a 20-10 guy for his career, for a lottery pick. I'll come back to this later. Now read this very carefully please. You asked me a question and I answered it. I asked you some questions in my previous post that you ignored. I'm going to ask you a set of questions that I would like you to answer as well: Question 1.) Since you have gone on record as saying that you specifically love Battier, is it the type of player he is that made you fall in love or is it him specifically? If it's the former and not the latter, do you love Bowen, Ariza, Posey, Pietrus, and all other guys who do the same thing he does just as much or is this a blind love just for Shane? Question 2.) Since you said that the Ray Allen and Artest trades are exceptions, how many examples of teams trading lottery picks for Battier type players can you show me or is trading a lottery pick for a role player like Shane the exception? Question 3.) You've admitted the Rockets overpaid for Battier. Whether you acknowledge it or not, that means they made a mistake by not maximizing their asset (the lottery pick). So my 3rd question to you is since the Rockets failed to "win now" with Battier, even when everybody was healthy in 2007, will you explicitly now admit that the Rockets made a mistake in trading a lottery pick for this role player? Question 4.) Why is it that Battier had more fta attempts in his 1st year with the Griz than his entire career as a Houston Rocket? Question 5.) Is it wise to give up a lottery pick for a guy who hit his ceiling sometime in college and will not improve as a basketball player anymore and will instead regress? Question 6.) What would the Rockets be able to get for Battier in a trade currently? Just like you asked me to name specific players, I'm asking you to do the same. Please keep in mind that the Rockets were a good defensive team before Battier got here. So what can the Rockets get for him? Can we get a Rudy Gay type player for him? Would Phoenix give up their late lottery pick for him? You can analyze all the hypothetical scenarios you want in your answer whether the team is young and rebuilding, a perennial lottery team, a contender, a team that had a bad season for whatever reason and missed the playoffs etc... but I do want specific players. This way we can tackle the issue of Battier's market value. Please don't duck and dodge these questions anymore. I've been courteous enough to answer your inquiries, so please do the same for me. I'm anxiously awaiting your responses.
Oh I dont know... any player that can reliably make a wide open 3 pt shot. Unless you think face-palming Kobe is a skill worth paying several mils for.
I mean, could the rox get lotto/high production for shane right now? What about middle talent? If they called Chicago, could they get salmons? What about Nocioni in Scaramento? Nocioni is a better player to me and is a tough defender who will rise to the moment.
Landry can be traded, it just requires his approval until one year after he signed his contract -- September 25. Since there's no real benefit or loss to executing the trade before that date (ie, not missing game action/training camp nor any financial impact), the Rockets and another team could agree to a deal and wait until September 26 to finalize it if they really think Landry would be a barrier.
Ultimately, I think Battier is not going to be traded. The best case scenario is for the Rockets to trade T-Mac's expiring contract for a playmaking wing and a backup center. This would allow Battier to become a 15-20 mpg bench player, which is what he is. His role would be situational and dependent on the competition. It's just ridiculous to have such an offensively impotent player out there for around 35 mpg. However, since Battier's value is ostensibly high at the moment, Houston would be foolish not to see what's out there. Leebigez there's also another piece of information I wanted to share with you. Did you know that Pietrus by himself in 28 mpg has outscored Cleveland's entire bench in this series so far? 73 pts for Pietrus vs 57 from the Cavs' bench. It's a shame we can't get that type of offensive production from the guy who plays more mpg that cost us a lottery pick. This team could've been so much better if they kept that lottery pick and added somebody like Pietrus or Childress for a future 1st rounder (which wouldnt've have been a lottery pick). The window would've stayed open for a longer period of time.
LOL WHO. The whole point of the statement is saying who would we land if we traded him. Describing a skill set is NOT the same thing.
Kwame, try answering my question first, then i'll gladly answer yours...as far as i can see, Leebigez wasn't sure childress was even available and once again, he wrote that's a guy he was hoping for, not that he'd fill the role shane had. Childress isn't even like any of the guys you mentioned, you just went with him as a bail out. I posted more than enough proof showing Pietrus wasn't being shopped or available, and definitely not where shane was at his career, nice try though I think this is the part where you accuse me of tacitly admitting defeat, it's really amazing how many times you use that expression. And finally, you're questions are very flawed, there's some contradiction there, some ignorance, you show it all, at least your consistent.
