now I'm on to the Christians, will be moving on to the Jews if they start to do some thing absurd, unlike gwenyco, I spread my posts of absurdity using religion around everything CHRISTIANS PROTESTS FORUM REGARDING KEEPING GAYS AND LESBIANS FROM BEING BULLIED http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid22133.asp Pastors protest Iowa school's sponsorship of antibullying forum A group of southeast Iowa pastors plan to launch an organized protest of a school-sponsored forum planned for Tuesday focusing on bullying and its effect on gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender students. The Burlington School Board will help host and participate in the GLBT Youth in Iowa Schools Task Force meeting scheduled for 7 p.m. Tuesday at James Madison Middle School. The pastors said they are opposed to focusing the attention on school safety for that specific group of students. "We're just strongly against it," said the Reverend Steve Perkins of St. John AME Church, who attended a meeting of pastors Thursday to discuss strategy for opposing what some among them described as the gay agenda. Perkins and his fellow ministers do not want to see GLBT students singled out as a specially protected class of student. If that happens, the ministers fear that "proponents of the homosexual lifestyle" will gain access to the hearts and minds of Burlington youth. "We do want safety for all kids," Perkins said, "and for them to have an opportunity to learn on an even playing field." The pastors intend to fill the school board room at the administration building for a scheduled 8 p.m. school board work session Monday. A new harassment, bullying, and hazing policy adopted by the board in August prohibits acts of intolerance, harassment, bullying, or hazing based on race, color, creed, gender, religion, marital status, ethnic background, national origin, disability, sexual orientation, physical appearance, or socioeconomic background. The policy defines harassment, bullying, and hazing and outlines punishments for students or staff found to have engaged in any of those behaviors. The policy also calls on the district to educate students about cultural diversity and promote tolerance of individual differences. Board president Frosty Krummel, pastor at First Presbyterian Church in Burlington, would not elaborate on his own opinion about the other ministers' misgivings about the Burlington schools becoming involved in LGBT issues. He did point out, however, that there are other Burlington churches listed among the forum's sponsors and noted the existence of a "wide diversity of legitimate Christian opinion." Within his own faith, Krummel said one could speak with five ministers and get five different opinions on the subject of homosexuality. Krummel didn't seem to oppose the forum or the district's participation in it. "It's an educational forum," he said. "If you can't have an educational forum within the educational system, where can you have them?" (AP)
What is the role/point of organized religion? Seriously. Max, rhester: Help me here - I'm starting to lose what little respect I had left for religion. Not christianity in particular - don't read me wrong - but you guys usually manage to convince me to attempt to remain spiritual at least. So what's the answer?
Well, do you believe in a God? I think given the intricate perfection of nature, the universe, and all creations and the rules of science through which they all exist in conformity, I think it's logical to hypothesize that there is some greater being. If you believe so, then I think religion is an attempt of understanding mankind's purpose on earth in relation to this higher being.
So people with the same faith can worship, pray, and strive to be better together. Though I don't go to Church that much because I feel like as a true Christian you need to follow the words of Christ. -------------------------------------------------------------- And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. Matthew 6: 5-8 -------------------------------------------------------------- Now I'm not saying that one shouldn't go to church, but rather my experience with a lot of church/christian organization is that people are going there to be seeing at the churches, or other reasons instead of just mere connection with god himself. And I believe, when I go to church, it might not be for all the right reasons (I enjoy going to a Chinese Church for a while just because they serve some really good lunch)
If not, then you lost nothing. On the flip side, if you're wrong, then get ready to burn for eternity in the hellfire.
It also generally teaches some basic ethics that can be quite helpful. Religions tell us to help the poor, not to lie, not to steal etc... If you look at basic political philosophy and the formation of human society, people never had any incentive to not lie or not to steal. Generally the threat of God got people to shape up. I guess nowadays, people can learn basic ethics without religion but that doesn't apply to everyone and for some religion is the only route to becoming a more ethical person.
All of these responses are understandable, but the question is: Why organized religion? It seems to me that organized religion leads to political manipulation, and a general loss of emphasis on true spirituality. So why is organized religion good? What purpose does it serve that cannot be accomplished by a singular person?
Why organized schooling? Why can't a person learn the things he needs to know to survive this world by himself? Kids shouldn't have to goto school, they can teach themselves math and reading.
Are you saying that people are incapable of being spiritual (or religious, whatever you prefer) without guidance? I don't agree. The distinction, IMO, is that spirituality comes from within right? Even christian dogma preaches this via the holy spirit - i.e., the holy spirit allows for one to come to an understanding of christ independent of the church. On the other hand, education is man-made, and therefore is best taught via human methodologies such as schooling.
No one said people can't find spirituality on their own. The real question is can everyone find spirituality on their own? My answer is no. Not everyone is born and lives in an environment that is conducive to developing personal spirituality. If you're born into a crime-laden family with no hope, organized religion in some ways becomes your only outlet and only way to gain spirituality. You're right in that you can find happiness by yourself but don't extend that assumption to everyone.
Well that's sad. I don't think organized religion is intrinsically linked to spirituality anymore ([cynic]if it ever was[/cynic]). In fact, I would venture to say that it is opposed to personal spirituality in favor of group control/think.
I think religion is somewhat different than faith or spirituality. Religion is a social institution that exists as much for helping to organize a society as it is to perpetuate a spiritual belief. I don't believe someone can have a singular religion because most religions emphasize the importance of a collective group and the tenets of most religion also emphasize group action, for instance one of the Three Jewels of Buddhism is the Sangha (the Buddhists community), 6 of the Ten Commandments deal with how one relates to others (do not kill, do not steal, love thy neighbor..) and one of the Pillars of Islam is to give charity. All of these are instructions regarding how one builds a society and while imbued with spirituality aren't spiritual of themselves since they are about the here and now of earthly existence.
This is spot on. Most of these values can be taught at home if you grow up an a stable family environment. However, this is a luxury and for many this is only a dream. When your family is unable to teach basic ideas like don't steal or lie, religion becomes an important way to help teach these ideas.
Please elaborate on "organizing a society". GeeImSoBored seems to think that implies teaching "values". While I think that is true, there is a whole lot more to what a church teaches. More importantly, "values" is a very subjective term. Don't lie, don't steal, these are good things to teach, but many other "values" are controversial, to say the least. Is tolerance a "value"? How about separation of church and state? I'm unconvinced that organized religion serves to help society as much as it exists to enslave it to an intolerant interpretation of spirituality, guilt, and moral self-centeredness*. *I'm pretty sure that's not a word.
It's funny that organized religion has TV commercials now - they all look like self-help videos. One on local TV here never says the word "Jesus" or "God" but spends the whole 30 seconds talking about "success in life." There's another one that doesn't even call itself a church - and the entire commercial is either testimonial "It's fun!/People are enthusiastic!/I feel at home here!" or bad John Mayer sounding music that never mentions anything religious.
no I am not saying that at all. A person that doesnt goto school would probbaly be able to teach himself basic math and perhaps even basic reading comprehension skills. Much like a person who is trying to be "religious" on his own can have some sort of basic idea about the religion that they are practicing. However, much like someone who teaches themselves how to read might have difficulties discerning the finer nuances of grammar (adverbs, verbs, etc.), a person without spiritual guidance functions in much the same way. They will have a basic concept, but there will be things that they are missing. I don't believe organized religion is necessary, but the reality is that it's very hard to stay on course practicing your beliefs if you are by yourself and not in some sort of fellowship. I've tried this route before and wound up more distant from God than ever in my life. Without the fellowship of other Christians, I strayed many many times. The Church is there to be an anchor of your faith, to remind you of what you're supposed to be doing. Yes it comes with rules and structure, but it also comes with love and guidance, much like what every parent aspires to be like. yes the holy spirit is within us, however we are still commanded to gather in fellowship. You can't say "you have the holy spirit, you dont need to goto Church". The holy spirit first came down during a fellowship meeting, it didn't come down to individuals who were just going for a stroll in the park and who had not bothered with attending the meetings.
Counterpoint: Maybe the basic concept is all that is needed. The rest is simply dogma-induced political fluff.
There is a lot of Christians right now who have gotten themselves way too involved with the politics of this nation, something which I am vehemently against. Our focus should be on winning more people to Christ through the good old fashioned way of spreading the message, not trying to build a Christian theocracy. I view the Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons of the world the same way I view Osama. The only difference is, he hijacked his religion through death and terrorism while the others hijacked our religion through political influence and big fancy words. Organized religion is NOT what you see Robertson preaching. It is NOT about forcing others to worship God. When you step into a church, you should not feel like you are going to a police station or courthouse where you will be ticketed and fined for every single little thing. The feeling of a church is supposed to be of a house (God's house specifically) where there are rules like every house, but also there is love and guidance. And that within that highly structured but highly loving environment, one is able to grow spiritually. The way that the extremists have it now, they emphasize a lot more rules and wind up repressing one's spiritual growth rather than nourish it.
