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Israel is not going anywhere, DEAL with it !

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout' started by DaDakota, Nov 8, 2001.

  1. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    I am sick of reading the crap spewing forth from Rompa, Q8, and others that think that Israel is going to go away.

    How soon they forget that Kuwait owes its freedom and democracy to the good old USA for taking up a fight that they themselves were unable to handle. We saved their sorry asses, and American's lost their lives fighting for THEIR country, and now they act like it never happened? They should be on their knees thanking us each and every day, that they are not living exiled from their homeland by a murderous b*stard that controls Iraq.

    They spout off about Israel being the real bad guy, and saying that no peace is possible until Israel vacates it's country. This is an UNREASONABLE demand, and will NEVER...EVER...EVER happen.

    Think about it for a minute here: Israel has nuclear weapons...NUKES, they could whipe out most of the muslim countires that surround them in the push of a few buttons, but they don't do it do they? No, WHY? Because they only desire to live in peace.

    However, some radicals decide that killing innocent Israeli children with suicide bombers is a way to get their point across, and Israel retaliates with greater force, and the cycle never ends.

    I see a lot of b****ing and moaning, but no REAL solutions here.

    FACT - Israel is there to stay. NO one...and I mean NO ONE has a right to any land anywhere in the world, we have all been conquered at some point in the past. No one has a GOD given right to any piece of land anywhere.

    FACT - Many Arab countries support terrorism and thus side with the terrorists in their quest to rid the region of Israel.

    There needs to be some serious talks, and they can not include any part of Israel going away, this will not happen.

    However, a Palestinian state is a great idea, and should be part of any forthcoming agreement.

    My guess is that this will still not be enough for these radical zealots, they will find some other thing to be pissed off about, and make outrageous demands so that they can continue to blame their poor health, or poor economy, or poor subsitance on someone other then themselves.

    Israel is there to stay, DEAL WITH IT !!

    DaDakota
     
  2. mrpaige

    mrpaige Member

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    Even if it did happen for whatever reason, how would that lead to Peace? For one, it's not as if Muslim countries don't sometimes fight against each other (not to mention that many of the problems that bin Laden has with the US are not necessarily related to Israel at all. Would terrorist organizations go away and stop targeting the US simply because there is no Israel?). And secondly, if Israel really is the cause of all the problems in the Middle East and the violence there, wouldn't they continue to fight even without a country? I would think that if there was no Israel, the people who support there being an Israel would fight to restore the country and retake as much of the area as they could.

    So if peace is impossible while Israel exists, it's also impossible if Israel doesn't exist.
     
  3. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    Mr Paige,

    Exactly, I mean was the Iraq and Iran war over Israel?

    I don't think so, these are small countries that get a a bunch of money because they are sitting on oil deposits, and have no idea how to handle their new found fame.

    DaDakota
     
  4. haven

    haven Member

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    Jeez, DaDakota you're awfully certain of yourself, aren't you?

    1. If you're simply responding to q8 rocket and rompa... well, why bother? They're clearly extremely biased, at best, and at worst, bloodthirsty bigots.

    2. I haven't heard anyone else on this board urge the deconstruction of Israel. It's one thing to want a Palestinian state, and quite another to desire Israel to be wiped off the face of the earth.

    PS It's not at all certain that Israel would actually launch nuclear weapons if it were invaded.
     
  5. ROXRAN

    ROXRAN Member

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    don't be scared.
     
  6. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    Haven,

    Israel had the tactical nukes ready to launch in the war of 1973, they were getting over run, and seemed ready to use the nukes.

    I just get tired of people playing the blame game, and not taking a more pragmatic look at the situation, Israel is a country, and until the rest of the ME decides to recognize that fact, there will not be peace in the region.

    The scary thing is that as technology grows in those countries so does the global threat.

    It is time to get some REAL lasting peace in that region, before it drags the rest of the world down with it.

    DaDakota
     
  7. boy

    boy Member

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    since when did kuwait have a democracy? a king kind of hinders that...

    and israel is wrong period. i don't advocate destroying it but i do advocate palestinians defending themselves from israeli oppression and persecution and racism and bigotry and all that other crap israel does.

    and iran iraq war was because america didn't like iran and gave iraq weapons (chemical and biologcal) to kill iranis...

    http://www.gush-shalom.org/generous/generous.html
    go check out what jewish sources say was true about barak's offer.

    i don't believe any muslim country or any country in the world should recognize israel until there is a palestinian state. simple as that. that i believe in however i don't think now you can eradicate all of the jews they live there so you have to deal with them. however if palestinian state was to form it definately would need a) to have weapons to defend itself from israel or b) have israel disarm.
     
  8. haven

    haven Member

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    DaDakota:

    It's called a nuclear threat. The US and the Soviet Union put their nukes on high alert several times in the Cold War... with the explicit wish that the other's intelligence figure it out. It's something you WANT everyone to know because it increases the credibility of an actual launch.

    Yet nothing was ever launched. In fact, Mao came to regard the entire thing as a bit of a joke, and I believe was the first to use the phrase "paper tiger" in reference to nukes.

    Is any STATE ever going to launch? I'd be a bit surprised. I'm far more worried about militants.
    In close confines like that, Israel would simply have too much to lose. They'd harm their own citizens... and just about guarantee brutal treatment after, which I don't think would be inevitable if the invaders were moderate Arab nations.

    Besides, Israel would only launch at the point when defeat was assurred. And then, what's the point? Nukes are only useful as a deterrent, really. Everyone knows you PROBABLY WON'T use them in any case... but it's better to be safe.
     
  9. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    Boy,

    I believe that even Q8 says that Kuwait has a democracy, and England has a Queen, and will soon have a King and they are a democracy.

    DaDakota
     
  10. ROCKETS1972

    ROCKETS1972 Member

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    POSTED BY BOY
    and iran iraq war was because america didn't like iran and gave iraq weapons (chemical and biologcal) to kill iranis...


    Wrong!!!!! in 1979 the main ally of Iraq was the USSR
    Sadam used the hostage crises as an opportunity to invade
    Iran and Iraq made their own chemical and biological weapons
    under the Geneva convention right after WW1 in witch we singed we can not make use or sell Chemical weapons

    as far as Biological weapons we have them but ours are a
    little too powerful to use except for a war with Russia
     
  11. BrianKagy

    BrianKagy Member

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    Wishing for Israel to go away is like trying to stop people from being homosexual.

    There are some things that just are the way they are. The key is picking the right ones to oppose.

    Poverty's not permanently entrenched. Oppression is not a fact of life. Racial, sexual, and religious discrimination is the choice of the few, not the destiny of the many.

    Terrorism is not immutable.

    We can do anything we want to, if we'll stop wasting so much goddamned time on trying to impose our political agendas on each other.
     
  12. DAROckets

    DAROckets Member

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    If invaded and on the verge of losing chances are pretty damm good that the ME becomes more of a wastland than it already is.

    Samson Option
     
  13. treeman

    treeman Member

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    haven, you are absolutely wrong. Israel would nuke every state it could reach if it was about to be overrun. That is Israel's end of MAD. Mayer actually ordered a strike to be prepared in '73; the bombs were loaded, and the planes were prepped. The came the breakthrough (by a young armor officer named Ariel Sharon) in the Sinai, and Israeli armor was poised at the heart of Egypt, at the same time the Golan Heights were being taken...

    Israel will use nukes if it is ever threatened with imminent destruction. They will nuke every Arab within a thousand miles if it looks like they are about to die. I guarantee it.

    The Arabs need to understand that this is a MAD situation. They just need to realize what their end of that relationship means (it is not terrorism that gives them that power), and negotiate from that level. They need to grow up and realize that the gun they are holding will get them more than a shiny nickel... But not in the way they're using it now.

    I agree 100% with what DaDakota has stated. He is on target.
     
  14. R0ckets03

    R0ckets03 Member

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    So Israel is a perfect little angel who has done no wrong so far? :rolleyes:
     
  15. treeman

    treeman Member

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    ROckets03:

    That's pretty lame. no one thinks that, and I think you know that.
     
  16. R0ckets03

    R0ckets03 Member

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    Then why are only the Muslims made out the bad guys in threads like these? I agree that the the militant Palestinians and all other extremist Muslim groups need to be eradicated. These people have nothing to do with Allah. What they are doing in Israel (shooting up buses, etc.) and elsewhere in the world is completely dispicable. Israel is also not a saint thougth. They are the ones that ran the Muslims out of their very own houses. How would you feel like if the some Apache dude came to your house and demanded that you leave since this is his ancestral home? Even right now there are stories about the Israeli army and police force constantly committing injustices against Muslims, but for some reason that never gets as much pub.
     
  17. treeman

    treeman Member

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    ROckets03:

    That's pretty lame. no one thinks that, and I think you know that.
     
  18. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

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    Haven,

    I'm wondering exactly how a 'moderate' Arab nation would be in the position of INVADING Israel?
     
  19. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

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    I really think this isn't true. The abuse the Israelis heap on the Palestinians is covered a lot. Everytime they react with helicopter strikes or move tanks in and Palestinians get killed, we see it. But we also see that those strikes usually happen after some incident like the Pizza suicide bomber, or the assassination of the tourism guy, or the bus killers. And we can understand why Israel would react, even OVERreact. It doesn't make it right, but it makes it easier to understand. When the Israelis DO move in they aren't lining Palestinians up against a wall and shooting them. When the Palestinians move it is mainly against civilians, and while civilians DO get caught in conflicts, TARGETING them is another matter.

    By contrast you would say put yourself in the Palestinians position. I think that I very well may be fighting against Israel if I were a Palestinian, but I WOULD NOT BE TARGETING PIZZA PARLORS OR CHILDREN's BUSES. OR (hopefully) I would be trying to calm everyone down so the peace process could work out. I think it is important to point out that Israel has given in a lot in the process. Twenty years ago Arafat was on the run as a terrorist, and now the Palestinians DO have some land, and they do have SOME autonomy, although not as much as they want. But this takes time. And the radical elements on both sides only prevent resolution by these attacks.
     
  20. treeman

    treeman Member

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    Just to put out a general question:

    Who would you trust more, a police officer who had his weapon holstered, or a child waving a loaded pistol around?

    If the Arabs want to realize their end of MAD, they'll assume the stance of a police officer with a holstered weapon, instead of that of a child waving around an unholstered one. And shooting people with it...

    If the Arabs (Palestinians, in this case) can understand their end of the strategic standoff, then we might actually be able to move forward with a Cold War type of framework. I don't think anyone could realistically hope for better, except the consolation would be that no arms races would occur (at least not at the nuclear/strategic level). I for one would be delighted to see these idiots stop shooting at each other and come to a table...

    They need to respect each other before they can negotiate with each other. They both respect force. That is the unholy truth...
     

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