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Israel Goes To War with Hamas 2023

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by astros123, Oct 6, 2023.

  1. mtbrays

    mtbrays Contributing Member
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    I have no idea, but it's a history I'd be interested in learning more about.

    Modern evangelical support of Israel is due, in large part, to their belief that Israel must exist in order to trigger the return of Christ. Never mind that they believe all non-Christians will go to hell, they're more than happy to use Israel to further what they believe the end of the world will be.
     
  2. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Contributing Member
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    We should actively avoid empowering people who believe that the world is going to divinely end in their lifetimes.
     
  3. jo mama

    jo mama Contributing Member

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    many of my very catholic family believe the same thing...that all christians have a biblical duty to defend israel. its about revelations/the end-times. its cuckoo-talk, but they honestly believe it.
     
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  4. Nook

    Nook Member

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    The problem is that it is "de facto", Iraq has long been like this....... it doesn't work well though without clear boundaries and statehood though. The Assyrians have learned that the hard way.
     
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  5. Nook

    Nook Member

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    The Crusades are very complicated and very misunderstood. There wasn't a single crusade, but many over many years and in different areas - and the recording at the time is not as good as hoped. The Crusades also mean little unless the context of what lead up to the Crusades as well.

    There is blood all over the hands of Christians and Muslims for the Crusades.

    Having said that - antisemitism has been an issue in Europe for a thousand years. There have been periods of relative peace, but there have been wholesale efforts to end Jews in Europe as well. There have been a number of minority groups targeted over the last 1,000 years in Europe but the Jews have been near the top with Roma people.

    When it comes to the hatred of Jews in Europe leading up to WWI, it was a very commonly held bias in all of Europe around 1900. In Eastern Europe it was especially bad, and in Western Europe it was peaking. There were a lot of Jews that were involved in Socialism and Communism and even Anarchism. Terrorism was a real concern, and a lot of Europeans connected that to Jews.

    Also - the Nazi's only came into power as the alternative to the Communists. Reinhard Heydrich actually reached out to all of the other nations in Europe and the United States and said that they would send all of their Jews to them, and even offer some degree of payment. Not a single country took up the offer. The Nazi's were leery of the negative press for their treatment of Jews and just wanted them out of Germany. There was also a plan at one point to ship the Jews to Africa I believe and let them fend for themselves.

    Ultimately, the USA allowed for more Jewish immigrants - but the rest of Europe really did not. It is reflected in the number of Jews in places like UK and France, there are not many. Israel was in part given to the Jews because the English did not want them.

    In hindsight, obviously, it would have been in everyone's best interest had the USA accepted those boats full of Jewish immigrants from Germany and Poland.
     
  6. pahiyas

    pahiyas Member

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    Knowing all that, the hell with the children then?
     
  7. astros123

    astros123 Member

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  8. astros123

    astros123 Member

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  9. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Contributing Member
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    Now there are two Gazas!
     
  10. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

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    The innocents who die as a result of being used as a human shield are tragic losses, but their use as a human shield must not be rewarded, lest the tactic gain in legitimacy and popularity. If you (the hypothetical you that is a terrorist, not actual you) knew you could massacre a dozen people and then retreat to a hospital or church and be safe from reprisal, wouldn't you do that every time? Wouldn't other people do it as well? What if you just strapped a baby right on your chest or back in one of those harnesses and took it with you when you were actually engaging in the terrorism. Should people be prevented from shooting back at you? Or to hell with that baby? There is a reason using human shields is illegal. The last thing anyone should want to do is encourage it.
     
  11. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    Involuntary human shields are, for all intents and purposes, hostages. Do you support killing hostages to discourage hostage-taking as well? If not, can you explain the difference?
     
  12. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    Reading Shadows at Dawn right now. Just so well done. Thanks again!
     
  13. astros123

    astros123 Member

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    You should watch this. Counts up all the different nations and religions that had control over Jerusalem at any point.
     
  14. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    It’s not the perfect situation and creation of an actual Kurdish state might lead to another war but it does show it is possible to carve out a region and give some protection for that group. My understanding is that the Kurdish region of Iraq has been the most stable and prosperous part of Iraq in since the US withdrawal and was even able to not just resist ISIS but play a major role in thr defeat of IsIs.
     
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  15. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    There was a lot of antisemitism in the US too and many Americans in the 1930’s were not interested in taking in a bunch of Jewish or other refugees.
     
  16. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    With every Ford sold, the company handed out antisemitic propaganda. So as Americans were buying Fords during the early 20th century, they were being fed antisemitic propaganda. And of course there were those that claimed they weren't antisemitic but didn't mid the jokes and even told them themselves because, afterall they were just joking.

    Sadly it made the whole thing "acceptable."
     
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  17. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

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    I oppose letting hostage takers evade capture or death to protect the hostages. Ideally you would be able to get the hostage taker to surrender or kill him without harming the hostage (the same in Gaza, it would be great if all the Hamas idiots lined up and surrendered to Israel), but you can't let him get away, even if that results in the death of the hostage.
     
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  18. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    Perhaps the Israels should negotiate in good faith. Offering to swap occupied land in exchange for empty desert at a ratio of 9:1 is not a deal Arafat was going to take and Israel knew it. They didn't want a deal so made sure to offer Arafat something no one could accept, while they could claim they were the ones trying to make peace, just like you have sucked up and bought hook line and sinker.
     
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  19. pahiyas

    pahiyas Member

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    Sporadic instances will be justified. But 4,000 DEAD children? I don't think that is a human shield case. It is more like indiscriminate bombing and human shields as an excuse. C'mon, 2,000 pounder bombs? phosphorus bombs? For a commander and 2 or 3 Hamas soldiers? Hamas has what, about 30,000 fighters. There is no place in densely populated Gaza of over 2M that they will ever be in isolation. What is IDF thinking if they drop powerful bombs? Do they know where the Hamas are? If so, they can surely devise a way to take them out. Obama did.

    And I want Hamas out of the picture so that they can no longer terrorize Israeli civilians. But not at the expense of 4,000 dead children. You have to be some kind of a human being to CONDONE that. At least some in the State Department do not think like you do.
     
  20. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Absolutely. FDR’s decision to decline taking the European Jews was supported by many Americans.

    I wish the fact that all of Europe, Canada and the USA turned away the offer from Nazi Germany was taught in high schools because then people would have an understanding that antisemitism wasn’t a German problem only, it was a Western problem.
     
    AkeemTheDreem86 likes this.

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