Seeing as I'm getting grilled about this in another thread, I thought this topic deserves it's own thread. Is Yao a Franchise Player? That's the question, and a I think a fair one at that b/c its a fundamental assumption upon which this team was built and crafted over the past two years. PLUS - anyone who's followed JVG back in NY knows that JVG rode Ewing like a horse during his time there until Ewing retired - and then everything went to hell. Whether or not people want to believe it, there are semblences of those old Knicks with our Rox (and no, I'm not talking about all those ex-Knicks who seem to pop up on our roster as a last hurrah before retirement). The semblence starts with the presumption that Yao is a franchise center -- much like Ewing back in the day. And however problematic our current roster situation is, it was constructed under this presumption as was the massive trade for T-Mac. Over the past 29 games or so we've gotten to see Yao with T-Mac and Yao x-T-mac, and how he's handled the pressure of carrying a team on his back. So this begs the above question. Especially going into the All-Star break in a few weeks with Yao as the leading vote getter. Clearly, his popularity is huge but is it substantiated by his stature as a true franchise player? SF3 got grilled for this, why should Yao be immune? As a reference, here's a quick look at other teams and their purported franchise stars. New Jersey: Jason Kidd, Vince Carter Philadelphia: Allen Iverson Boston: Paul Pierce Toronto: ? New York: Stephan Marbury Detroit: ? Cleveland: LeBron James Milwaukee: Michael Redd Indiana: Jermaine O'Neal, Ron Artest* Chicago: ? Miami: Shaq and Wade Orlando: SF3? Hill? Washington: Gilbert Arenas Charlotte: Emeka Atlanta: ? San Antonio: Parker and Duncan Dallas: Nowitski Memphis: ? New Orleans: ? Utah: AK47 Minnesota: Kevin Garnett Denver: Carmelo Seattle: Ray Allen Portland: ? Phoenix: Amare and Nash LA Clips: Elton Brand GS: ? LA Lakers: Kobe Beef Sacramento: ? And before people start chewing me out... note that I'm not starting this thread to Yao-bash. Instead I'd prefer if people tried to look at this matter objectively. And if that's not enough... here's a pic of me and declan theSAGE
if we are to discuss this seriously, I suggest we first define "True Franchise Player". without doing that, this discussion just won't go anywhere. so... sage, care to say who in your idea is a True Franchise Player in the league and how is that measured first?
The trade for T-Mac was a good one even if Yao is not on our team. Even if we presume that T-Mac is the ONLY franchise player for the Rockets, would JVG have assembled a team that is much different than the one we have now? If T-Mac is the only franchise player, does that mean JVG would build a team based on speed and fastbreaks instead of grind-it-down defense? I don't think so.
That's a good question. Absent any definitive source for a good definition here's my quick checklist of what I look for in a true franchise player. Here goes... A True Franchise Player 1. A true "Talent" across more than one skillset (e.g. shooting, passing, rebounding, etc.) 2. A true "League Leader" as ranked against his peers for that particular position 3. A true "Worker" in delivering consistent production at his position night in/night out 4. A true "On Court Leader" in his ability to galvanize his fellow teammates into playing better. 5. A true "Catalyst" in his ability to alter the game somehow (e.g. defensively, offensively) *Feel free to append/edit if necessary Moreover, I DO think there is a difference between hauling down "franchise player money" versus actually being a franchise player. The piece on Forbes does a great job highlighting the value of players from a business standpoint and perhaps that's where Yao deserves the "franchise player money" but here in this thread, I'm thinking strictly in terms of one's play and impact on the court. Does that help? My two cents. theSAGE
I'm a Yao fan and dont get me wrong Yao is good but maybe a career 21pts 10reb guy but Yao can't win anything on his own without another SUPERSTAR on the team. He'll never be a SHAQ, TIM DUNCAN, GARNETT Yao mite be alil overrated because of his marketing power, that you HAVE to pay him MAX contract because of what he can bring off the court. If Yao was another RACE he wont be as known and would be more TRADEABLE than he is now. Pretty much you have to pay Yao max and keep him because of his marketing value. Patrick Ewing, David Robinson > YAO = Rik Smits If you look at Ewing #'s we could only wish Yao could get there
Well if you're going to consider Ewing to be a franchise guy, then I'd say Yao is one too. IMO Ewing wasn't anything more than a solid guy who could lead a team. He wasn't a superstar or anything who went out and dominated the competition. Yao is sort of in the same mold, except that Yao has never had the benefit of certain defenses being illegal (being fronted by one guy and then having help shading on the backside would be a big hinderance to anybody). And BTW, I don't know if the Knicks necessarily "rode" Ewing during JVG's years (it was moreso during Riley's reign in NY). They made the Finals in a year where Ewing got sidelined for the season.
I think a lot of people just didn't like your definition of a "franchise player". How a franchise player is supposed to lead his team to a .500 record even if he's playing with the 2002 UCLA women's team. Maybe top 3-5 in his position would be a more apt measuring stick. Of course - this wouldn't really work in Yao's case (dearth of centers). Is he a great player? I don't think so. Is he the best center in the league? Arguably yes. Is he worth the max contract? Yes - considering that was his market value. The Rox decided to give max contracts to 2 "young" players in Yao and TMac and try to build the right team around them. I think it was a good plan and will bring a championship to Houston. I say they have around 5-7 years to get it done. It's a damn shame what's happened to the team this year but if they tread water and get the 8th seed, a healthy Rockets team could really be a darkhorse in the playoffs. They'll probably have to beat the Spurs anyway so why not sweep them in the first round? At the very least - we have 2 perennial All-Stars and free PPLIVE broadcasts from CCTV5.
That's some tough criterias to meet By that standard, there are probably only 5, 6 franchise players in the league. Yao is definitely not that kind of franchise player. But if we say, by default, there is at least one franchise player in each team, then he IS one for sure, because I rate him higher than VC, Gasol, Arenas, Anothony etc, he definitely impact the game more, although he has less points.
IMO, it depends on each team. For certain teams, a Michael Redd or an AK47 is a franchise type player, while these two guys would never be legitimate franchise players on the Rockets or other big-market teams. So, I think it's relative. Now, if you want to narrow it down a bit, would you say that every 'superstar' is a potential franchise player? I would have to say yes. But again, many people disagree as to what constitutes a superstar. IMO, players like Shaq, Duncan, KG, T-Mac, Kobe, Lebron, and Iverson are clear-cut superstar players/franchise players. There are players who're not exactly in that mold of talent/ability, but are all-star type talents who would be great to have on a team, but not exactly players you can successfully build a team around (i.e. Marbury, Francis, Brand, AK47, Carter, and a bunch of other near-top talents in the league that just don't exactly spell 'franchise player'). But again, that's just how I see it... EDIT: BTW, in that sense, Yao is a franchise player because you CAN successfully build a team around him as a dominant big man, and with the right pieces you can have a good team with him at the helm.
I think real and tiger have great points. Maybe we should narrow down the search a bit. IF the question is: Is Yao a Franchise player for a championship-caliber team? Then my answer is no, he is not. But as other posters have pointed out, that is a very short list. I would perhaps only put Duncan, Lebron, KG, Kobe, T-Mac, and Shaq on that list.
You put Patrick Ewing and David Robinson together, it shows you are dumb. Then you put Yao and Rik Smits together, it shows you are dumber. Since you have not put Dream's name together with Patrick Ewing, I cannot say you are the dumbest.
Ewing and the Admiral are two of the greatest big men in league history, they were franchise players for sure. Is Yao on their level yet? No. However, is Yao ANYWHERE FREAKIN' CLOSE TO RIK SMITS' LEVEL OR IMPACT AS A PLAYER? F*** NO! He's somewhere in the middle but closer to Ewing than Smits. Alright, sorry for the outburst, I have calmed down now, just had to get that out of my system. I just get so freakin' pissed off when idiots compare Yao to some bona fide role player who was a jump shooter. Get your act straight people...
LOL. I still remember that about two years ago, some called you YOH, maybe I did that occasionally out of frustration as well But now, I see you more and more in strong defense of our big man. Go Rockets!
To me a Franchise player can have 2 definitions. A. Can carry his team far into the playoffs/finals B. Can fill the seats, or bring max publicity to a franchise. Yao has definately done B. We have yet to see him fulfill A. But im sure most people would consider King James a franchise player and he has yet to fulfill A. as well.
Thats exactly how I felt about Yao...its so hard to compare him to anyone that I just let Yao be Yao, I think thats the best way to look at it, at least not until the next 4 yrs where we will get a better idea of how Yao will be like as a player. Yea, I find it funny that he is being compared to a weak post guy in Rik Smith who does nothing but shoot jumpshot all day and only avg. 15/8 in his best season. I think he's our franchise/max player just for the fact that he's the important piece of the puzzle to win a championship and the fact that he is arguebly a top 3 center in the NBA which is rare compared to how it once was 10 yrs ago.
Of those three, Duncan has been the only one to win a ring even arguably "on his own" (and Duncan had Robinson for one of those and Manu for the other two). Garnett wasn't even able to get his team to the playoffs last year, so saying that Yao can't get anything done "on his own" also describes every other NBA talent past, present, and future. Even Wilt Chamberlain was only able to get two rings, partly because he had some bad teams in Philly, and partly because of Bill Russell. I think this is partly true. Yao deserves the max in part for his on-court skills, and in part because of his marketing draw. He is an upstanding, high-class, Chinese player who will MORE than make up for all of the money that Les can throw his way, however... Saying that Yao is equal to Rik Smits is undervaluing Yao DRASTICALLY. Yao is an 19/9 guy in his 4th year and Smits never even sniffed those numbers. I would also argue that Yao's production would be far different if he were playing under the same rules that Robinson and Ewing had. Yao is pretty darned close to those numbers even though he is double teamed before he even touches the ball on most plays. When comparing Yao with Ewing, you need look no further than the opponent's game plan. Every opponent who faces the Rockets with Yao in the lineup has the same kinds of problems that teams had when facing the Ewing led Knicks. Somehow, you had to try and stop a guy who was capable of going off for HUGE numbers on any given night. Yao and Ewing take (and took) up most of the game planning for opposing coaches no matter who else was on the respective rosters. Yao does not need to put up 25/12 to have the same impact on the game that Ewing did. Yao already has that kind of impact because everyone knows that if you don't double, front, or disguise your defense, he will torch you for 30+. Yao may never make it to the same level with some of the greats like Wilt, Russell, and Dream, but IMO, he is already FAR above Smits and is fast approaching the same level as Ewing (who never got even a single ring) and Robinson (who needed Duncan to get his).
So far, people see King James a franchise player because: (1) They see him throw down highlight dunks on Sportscenter every night. Thank you ESPN. (2) He scores a bunch of points because he launches a bunch of shots because he has the ball in his hand most of the time because he is a G/SF. (three 'because's in one sentence, but you get the point) (3) He said he would lead his team and his teammates before he played his first NBA game. (4) They claim they see the 'it' in King James. They may be right. They may be wrong. Who knows? But it would be more convincing if James has at least played his first playoff game.
