From the NYTimes: Excerpt of a letter from Army Pfc. Jesse A. Givens, 34, of Springfield, Mo. Private Givens was killed May 1 when his tank fell into the Euphrates River after the bank on which he was parked gave way. This letter was written to be delivered to his family if he died. Melissa is his wife, Dakota his 6-year-old stepson and Bean the name he used for his son, Carson, who was born May 29. My family, I never thought that I would be writing a letter like this. I really don't know where to start. I've been getting bad feelings, though and, well, if you are reading this .... The happiest moments in my life all deal with my little family. I will always have with me the small moments we all shared. The moments when you quit taking life so serious and smiled. The sounds of a beautiful boy's laughter or the simple nudge of a baby unborn. You will never know how complete you have made me. You saved me from loneliness and taught me how to think beyond myself. You taught me how to live and to love. You opened my eyes to a world I never dreamed existed. Dakota ... you taught me how to care until it hurts, you taught me how to smile again. You taught me that life isn't so serious and sometimes you just have to play. You have a big, beautiful heart. Through life you need to keep it open and follow it. Never be afraid to be yourself. I will always be there in our park when you dream so we can play. I love you, and hope someday you will understand why I didn't come home. Please be proud of me. Bean, I never got to see you but I know in my heart you are beautiful. I know you will be strong and big-hearted like your mom and brother. I will always have with me the feel of the soft nudges on your mom's belly, and the joy I felt when I found out you were on your way. I love you, Bean. Melissa, I have never been as blessed as the day I met you. You are my angel, soulmate, wife, lover and best friend. I am sorry. I did not want to have to write this letter. There is so much more I need to say, so much more I need to share. A lifetime's worth. I married you for a million lifetimes. That's how long I will be with you. Please keep my babies safe. Please find it in your heart to forgive me for leaving you alone ... Teach our babies to live life to the fullest, tell yourself to do the same. I will always be there with you, Melissa. I will always want you, need you and love you, in my heart, my mind and my soul. Do me a favor, after you tuck the children in. Give them hugs and kisses from me. Go outside and look at the stars and count them. Don't forget to smile. Love Always, Your husband, Jess I'm not a pacifist. Sometimes wars must be fought. However, when our political leaders make the decision to go to war they had better weigh the potential benefits against the loss of soldiers like Jesse Givens. In this war I don't even think it's a close call.
That is a beautiful letter. Have you read the one by the soldier who requested of his wife, in the event of his death, to think of him every time a breeze wafted across her face. He died in The Civil War. Was that war worth it? Soldiers are going to die. That is the tragedy of war.
You are correct. It is the nature of war that men will die, more, that many, many men will die. It is because of that very nature that we are supposed to hold those who start wars to the highest possible standard.
There's a song by Jackopierce called "March" that reminds me so much of this letter... "politics and promises forever the same they take away a sacrifice they can not replace." Wow...Jesse Givens sounds like an amazing guy. The costs of conflict...of living with this constant conflict among races and nations and different groups of people is just too much to bear. And we've been doing it since the beginning. Since before there was an America...since before anyone can even remember. For as long as man has documented his own story, we've been beating the crap out of each other. Just awful.
People die outside of war. Saddam has proven that over and over. He's killed many more than we did. I doubt that we even inadvertently killed his citizens at the rate that he did-- even over a long haul. Why not hold Saddam to a standard?
Who holds people of other nations to their standard? Who gives them the right to determine what is right in another country? Every nation thinks its better than the others, so independantly deciding that Us being better than Them entitles Us to invade is a call for global chaos. But, anyways, that's a wild goose chase: we are supposed to hold our government accountable first and foremost, as it is ours. We really seem to be losing the distinction of what is and what is not ours. To say that we were in the right because our death rate is lower is ludicrous; by that logic the Nazis could say that they were the moral ones vs. the Soviets, etc. What is right and wrong for us to do is not measured against Saddam's murder toll, but against the standard of justifiable warfare we have always applied, global opinion, accountability to our people, and common sense. So far Bush has evaded or manipulated each and every one of those to get this war off the ground.
come on, MacBeth. you love going to logical extremes...see where this one takes ya. "who's to say whether or not the Nazis are wrong? What gives us the right to determine that? I mean, they really feel they've had some problems over there caused by those Jewish people..so who are we to judge? We're not better than them, thus we have no authority to intervene." think Nazis is too extreme? ok...insert Milosevic's regime. we can hand-wring at every situation wondering if we have the moral authority to stand up for what we believe is right. at some point someone has to lead.
Uh...Max...we never did, and never would have intervened with the Nazis because of anything they were doing internally.
A little birdie told me that a whole buncha Iraqis are glad that we are there. Of course there are a few who object. Why do you pay so much attention to them? Why would you rather ignore the majority who wanted relief from Saddam.. and we were the only source of that relief in their lifetime?
That little birdie has been lying to you: http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/11/sprj.irq.cia/index.html
Originally posted by MacBeth But, anyways, that's a wild goose chase: we are supposed to hold our government accountable first and foremost, as it is ours. We really seem to be losing the distinction of what is and what is not ours. To say that we were in the right because our death rate is lower is ludicrous; by that logic the Nazis could say that they were the moral ones vs. the Soviets, etc. <b>You do have to remember that we are in a war while Saddam is only tyrannizing his own people. I'd say that we are much more careful with his people than he was. We have reason to be. We have a respect for life that he cannot relate to.</b> What is right and wrong for us to do is not measured against Saddam's murder toll, but against the standard of justifiable warfare we have always applied, global opinion, accountability to our people, and common sense. So far Bush has evaded or manipulated each and every one of those to get this war off the ground. <b>Do you think I am a slave to jingoism. I have the power to be objective and when I look at Saddams' track record, I have no problem thinking that our way is a positive alternative for the Iraqi people. You can measure against some just war theory if you want, but the world changes and it just may be necessary to change the theory. It would seem that the Russians and the French were financially motivated to oppose our actions in Iraq. As Max said, someone has TO LEAD.</b>
Huh? So there are a few more oppositional activists. I'm talking about the millions of Iraqi citizens who now or soon will get power, water, education, and a degree of security and freedom they've never imagined. Please.
more on the new CIA report ------------------------- Report Warns Iraqis Supporting Resistance By PAULINE JELINEK, Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON - A new top-secret intelligence report warns that Iraqis are losing faith in U.S.-led occupation forces, a development that is increasing support for the resistance, officials said Wednesday. CIA and White House officials refused to confirm the existence of the report, which comes to light amid high-level meetings here on the situation in Iraq. Two other senior U.S. officials said the report paints a worrisome picture of the political and security situation there. It suggests spiraling violence and a lack of confidence in the U.S.-appointed Iraqi Governing Council may be bringing efforts to a turning point, sending more Iraqis over to the side of insurgents fighting occupation troops, said two officials speaking on condition of anonymity. Asked about the increase in guerrilla attacks on coalition forces in Iraq, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., told CBS "The Early Show" Wednesday that "these are very intelligent moves that the bad people are making ... time is not on our side." Because the report is classified, they talked about it only in general terms and only on grounds they not be publicly identified. The officials declined to furnish details. On the subject of the increasing violence, one official noted that American forces already are using more aggressive raids and other tactics to try to fight insurgents, which officials fear could alienate more Iraqis. For instance, American forces responded with aerial bombing and mortars over the weekend in a show-of-force response to the downing of a U.S. helicopter last week. On Wednesday, U.S. troops opened fire accidentally on a car carrying a member of the Iraqi Governing Council, the Iraqi administration said. The council member escaped injury but the driver was hurt. A Pentagon official said Wednesday the administration worries that support of coalition partners also could wane, as more international contingents suffer casualties in Iraq. He spoke after authorities reported a deadly truck bomb attack against the headquarters of the Italian Carabinieri police in the southern Iraqi city of Nasiriyah Wednesday. Meanwhile on the political side, the CIA report warns, appointed Iraqi leaders don't appear to be up to the job of governing or working toward holding elections, one official said. He declined to say what, if any, recommendations the CIA made in the report delivered to the administration Monday. White House spokesman Scott McClellan wouldn't comment on classified documents, but said: "There are a lot of indications to show that the Iraqi people want the coalition forces to stay and finish the job. They do not want to return to the days of a brutal, oppressive regime. They recognize that there is a better future coming for them." The Philadelphia Inquirer, which first reported on the CIA assessment in Wednesday's editions, said the report found it is impossible to completely seal Iraq's borders against infiltration by foreign fighters. It also raised concern that majority Shiite Muslims could begin joining minority Sunnis in turning against the occupation, the newspaper said. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...=/ap/20031112/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_iraq_cia_3
we're not talking about what happened with the Nazis...that's why I used Milosevic as well....but throw that out too, if you want to...the argument is about justification. are we ever justified in saying, "you know what...they're treating those other people in their own nation like absolute horse crap...let's do something about it." Playing your logic out, as you explained above, the answer is no. And I disagree entirely.
Actually RocketMan Tex, the vast, vast majority of Iraqi's are glad we are over there. I have a close relative over there and he reports that nearly everyone outside of a few regions (Tikrit to name one) waves and cheers for their vehicles as they drive by. Lots carrying American flags. I have some pictures I can send you. The media loves controversy, it makes for a better story.
