As I told MadMax in a previous thread, although I consider myself to be agnostic I never turn down anybody who invites me to join them at the Sunday/church services. Well, I had a friend who did just that and I was kind of upset/confused by what went on at this specific church, which is non-denominational. The service did not last too long, 1.5-2 hours, but the leader of this church spent about 30-40 minutes of the service preaching about the congregation's finances. He tells the congregation that there are some members who have been "robbing God" because they have not been giving their 10%. He was preaching to the congregation about financing their money so that they could give to the church, giving hints and tips on what they could save money on and what they could cut out of their lives that isn't needed. He even stated that stimulus checks, employee bonus, etc. are all rolling in and all or part of that should be coming to the church. Those that are not paying their dues or trying their best to do so are therefore "robbing God" by being greedy and keeping the money for themselves. I was confused about the 10% thing so after the service I asked my friend about it. He stated that members of churches should give at least 10% of their income to the church, so if you make $1000 a month then $100 needs to go to the church. He said it is better to give than to receive and by giving these funds to God your life will be made better here and in the afterlife. He stated the same rhetoric the pastor did about "robbing God" and he told me him and his wife give almost $300/month to the church (at the same time he constantly has to borrow money from me). He said he reminds the congregation about 1-2 times per month of their duty to give to God. I told him no offense but that sounds absurd to me. I mean I have heard of offering plates, donations, etc. but never a church that preaches to the members how to finance their money and specify how much of your income should go to the church. I thought people went to church to worship and went to financial advisers for financial advice. Now of the many churches I have been to, none of them have ever done anything like this. As I have stated, I have seen an offering plate or basket passed around but no specified amount being sought from it. I have seen churches in front of stores asking for donations, again no specified amounts. This church was the first time I witnesses something like this. So I ask all people who go to church regularly, is this normal? I mean when I finally thought about it I sort of laughed as it reminded me of that "In Living Color" skit with Jim Carrey and Damon Wayans (below) but something about this bothered me because this is actually going on. <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/SrpdkRU-rhE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/SrpdkRU-rhE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Better to teach the virtues of generosity, I think. And to get people excited about particular projects your church is invested in. We find people are far more generous when there's a face and a cause behind what we're doing. We can all get pretty dogmatic about percentages....I think it's important for the Church to teach that it all belongs to God to begin with....and to stress how to live a life turned inside-out for other human beings.
The hebrew and greek word for tithe literally means "tenth". There are plenty of references in the Bible of people being asked (or commanded) to give tithes. Almost certainly, the pastor who was speaking was referencing Malachi 3:8-10. Here's the NIV version: 8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. "But you ask, 'How do we rob you?' "In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—the whole nation of you—because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it." So that's where it's coming from. You said you're agnostic, so I definitely understand if you don't accept a Christian teaching as something you need to do. There are some people who choose to believe that this is something that "you don't have to do anymore". And I can understand the reasoning that "giving 10% of your income to some local preacher doesn't necessarily equate to giving 10% of your income to God". All of these things are discussions unto themselves, but mostly I just wanted to point out that the preacher wasn't just making this all up.
Do you think that logic will work with evangelicals if Obama tries to raise taxes to pay for the bills that Bush has racked up for us? I hope so!
Good points...a couple of more you touched on: 1. You can get real dogmatic about where that money has to go. That it has to go to a church. Christ said that what you do for the least of humanity, you do for him. So if that's your starting place, whatever you give could be directed to anywhere that helps people; 2. If you really believe in the God suggested in the Bible and described in Jesus, I would suggest 10% is an awfully small number. It's not a transaction. It's a response to love that should flow pretty naturally.
I don't know what an evangelical is, anymore. I'd call myself one, but I don't know if that would mean what you mean when you say it. I do think there is an increased focus from the Church that economic policies that leave people high and dry are without compassion. I'm seeing that more and more in the Church.
If a preacher enjoys a high standard of living from the word of god, then he must be stripped from his material possessions are removed from the church, no matter how hot his wife is. I have no problem with my friends and family giving to the catholic church. They have programs like Operation:rice bowl, were you know where the money is going. Also, the next time archbishop daniel dinardo rolls up to the houstonian, in a yellow viper, will be the first time.
No, it is not the norm in my experience. The church I go to almost never talks about money and I would be very very wary of one that did demand money like this.
At a Catholic church, we just put whatever into a collection plate. There's never talk about how much or what percentage of your income, seems like a strange topic in church to talk about people's finances. The closest thing to that is that my church is pretty old and growing and they are looking to build a brand new church, so there's some boards near the entrance that show designs of the project and one of those thermometer graphs to show how much money has been raised and how much is needed. Again, people give whatever they want without any judgement about how much you should give.
Ya, maybe it is more common than I think. Obviously the church needs some basic amount of money to support its logistics, so I feel I should give to the church to support it. But the 10% number is an old testament concept. And really I don't think that giving money to the church should be a key part of christianity at all.
It is not unusual to hear a talk about parish finances in the Catholic churches I have attended. Based on your post it seems that this talk was more "heavy-handed". In that respect, it seems out of the ordinary. Every year (again, in the Catholic churches I have attended), parishioners pledge a certain amount. This is mainly for the church to be able to plan their budget (staff, school, activities, building, maintenance, etc.). Tithing is encouraged, but not demanded. The rule of thumb is that 1/3 will pledge and honor their pledge, 1/3 may pledge and (for the most part), will not live up to their pledge, and 1/3 will not pledge and not give. In addition, there may be extra funds needed for special projects and this would be separate from your yearly pledge amount.
I never agree with a church that preaches finances from the pulpit, especially when they are singling out specific things. I would run far away from a church like this. I wholeheartedly agree that a tithe needs to be paid, but it can be paid in many forms and fashions.
Giving out of a sense of guilt and/or obligation is not generosity. A lack of true generosity would indicate a lack of compassion, and a disconnect with what jesus taught. One wonders where this church spends said money.
I agree. Tithing does not get you into heaven Not tithing does not condemn you to hell. I believe Jesus did not command us to give money so we can build bigger churches with fancy coffee bars. Jesus did demand that we be generous (remembering it's not really our money anyway) with those in need.
