1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Is The Conservative Movment Flirting with FAscism?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by glynch, Jul 21, 2006.

  1. glynch

    glynch Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2000
    Messages:
    18,080
    Likes Received:
    3,605
    A few of the points don't fit too well, but many pretty much define the goaos and modus operandus of the conservative movement.
    14 Points of fascism

    In his original article, "Fascism Anyone?", Laurence Britt (interview) compared the regimes of Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Suharto, and Pinochet and identified 14 characteristics common to those fascist regimes. This page is a collection of news articles dating from the start of the Bush presidency divided into topics relating to each of the 14 points of fascism. Further analysis of American Fascism done by the POAC can be read here.

    1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism: Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

    September 11 Freedom Walk

    New Majority Leader: Iraq War “May Be The Greatest Gift That We Give” Our Grandchildren

    Headstones of soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan are inscribed with the Pentagons war-marketing slogans

    White House and the RNC are going to make a habit of using uniformed military personnel as props at Republican political rallies, despite the fact that it is a plain violation of military regulations banning politicization of the armed forces.

    "You must glorify war in order to get the public to accept the fact that your going to send their sons and daughters to die." The inside story of the cozy relationship between big box office American war movies and the Pentagon

    More...

    2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights: Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
    Bush threatens to veto $442b defense bill if Congress investigates detainee abuses.
    Guantanamo Judge: “I don’t care about international law. I don’t want to hear the words ‘international law’ again. We are not concerned with international law.”
    Rumsfeld to approve new guidelines that will formalize the administration's policy of imprisoning without the protections of the Geneva Conventions and enable the Pentagon to legally hold "ghost detainees,"
    US 'preparing to detain terror suspects for life without trial'
    U.S. oks evidence gained through torture
    July 1, 2003: U.S. Suspends Military Aid to Nearly 50 Countries: because they have supported the International Criminal Court and failed to exempt Americans from possible prosecution.
    US has at least 9000 prisoners in secret detention
    More...

    3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause: The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

    Congressman: Muslims 'enemy amongst us'
    SB 24, Ohio law to muzzle "liberals"
    World history textbook used by seventh-graders at Scottsdale’s Mohave Middle School was pulled from classrooms mid-semester amid growing right criticism of the book’s unbiased portrayal of Islam
    Rallies planned against 'Islamofacism': Event to 'unify all Americans behind common goal'

    More...

    4.) Supremacy of the Military: Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
    If you haven't seen the Oreo flash animation yet, see it here

    Bush’s Domestic Program Hit List

    Bush slashes domestic programs, boosts defense. Arlen Spector calls it "scandalous"

    Funding for job training, rural health care, low-income schools and help for people lacking health insurance would face big cuts under a bill passed Friday by the House

    Pentagon to spend 75 billion for three new brigades


    Three cable channels now feed news, information and entertainment about the armed services into millions of living rooms 24 hours a day, seven days a week: The Military Channel, the Military History Channel and the Pentagon Channel.
    More...

    5.) Rampant Sexism: The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
    It's legal again, to fire gov't workers for being gay
    Bush calls for Constitutional ban on same-sex marriages
    Bush refuses to sign U.N proposal on women's "sexual" rights
    W. David Hager chairman of the FDA's Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee does not prescribe contraceptives for single women, does not do abortions, will not prescribe RU-486 and will not insert IUDs.
    The State Department has awarded an explicitly anti-feminist U.S. group part of a US$10 million grant to train Iraqi women in political participation and democracy.
    More...

    6.) Controlled Mass Media: Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
    FBI Acknowledges: Journalists Phone Records are Fair Game
    Report shows U.S. government has been engaged in illegal propaganda aimed at its own citizens and the story gets only 41 mentions in the media
    Free Press details recent governmental propaganda efforts, from faux-correspondent Jeff Gannon to paid-off pundit Armstrong Williams, and from the demise of FOIA to video news releases passed off as news. also... See a Whitehouse fake news release here (opens realplayer)
    US seizes webservers from independent media sites
    Bush's war on information: US editors forbidden to publish certain foreign writers

    More...

    7.) Obsession with National Security: Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses
    Bush Aides ADMIT 'stoking fear' for political gain: Bush adviser said the president hopes to change the dynamics of the race. The strategy is aimed at stoking public fears about terrorism, raising new concerns about Kerry's ability to protect Americans and reinforcing Bush's image as the steady anti-terrorism candidate, aides said.
    The Bush administration periodically put the USA on high alert for terrorist attacks even though then-Homeland Security chief Tom Ridge argued there was only flimsy evidence to justify raising the threat level.

    Keith Olbermann: "The Nexus of Politics and Terror."
    Cheney warns that if Kerry is elected, the USA will suffer a "devastating attack"
    GOP convention in a nutshell (quicktime)

    Rove: GOP to Use Terror As Campaign Issue in 2006
    More...

    8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined: Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
    Jerry Falwell cleared of charges that he broke federal election law by urging followers to vote for Bush
    NC congressman proposes law making it ok to preach politics from the pulpit
    Texas Governor Mobilizes Evangelicals
    Family research council: Justice Sunday
    Thou shalt be like Bush: What makes this recently established, right-wing Christian college unique are the increasingly close - critics say alarmingly close - links it has with the Bush administration and the Republican establishment.
    Park Service Continues to Push Creationist Theory at Grand Canyon and other nat'l parks
    More...

    9.) Corporate Power is Protected: The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
    The K Street Project is a project by the Republican party to pressure Washington lobbying firms to hire Republicans in top positions, and to reward loyal GOP lobbyists with access to influential officials. It was launched in 1995, by Republican strategist Grover Norquist and House majority leader Tom DeLay.
    American Conservative Magazine: One U.S. contractor received $2 million in a duffel bag... and a U.S. official was given $7 million in cash in the waning days of the CPA and told to spend it “before the Iraqis take over.”
    There are 6 Congressional Committees investigating the Oil-for-Food (UN) scandal, yet not a single Republican Committee Chairman will call a hearing to investigate the whereabouts of 9 billion dollars missing in Iraq
    Bush money network rooted in Florida, Texas: Since Mr. Bush took office in 2001, the federal government has awarded more than $3 billion in contracts to the President's elite 2004 Texas fund-raisers, their businesses, and lobbying clients
    More...

    10.) Labor Power is Suppressed: Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
    Labor Department warns unions against using their money politically
    President Bush Attacks Organized Labor: Bush attacked organized labor Saturday, issuing orders effectively reducing how much money unions can spend for political activities and opening up government contracts to non-union bidding.
    March 2001: President Bush signed his name to four executive orders on organized labor last month, including one that cuts the money unions will have for political campaign spending.
    Congress and the Department of Labor are trying to change the rules on overtime pay, eliminating the 40 hour work week, taking eligibility for overtime pay away from millions of workers, and replacing time and a half pay with comp days.
    More...

    11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts: Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

    Bush's new economic plan cuts funding for arts, education
    Artists from all over the world are being refused entry to the US on security grounds.
    A group of more than 60 top U.S. scientists, including 20 Nobel laureates and several science advisers to past Republican presidents, on Wednesday accused the Bush administration of manipulating and censoring science for political purposes
    Freedom of Repression: New ruling will allow censorship of campus publications
    More...

    12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment: Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations
    American Gestapo is here: "There is hereby created and established a permanent police force, to be known as the 'United States Secret Service Uniformed Division.'"
    America: secret jails, secret courts, secret arrests, and now secret laws
    Snitch-or-Go-to-Jail bill will make pretty much anything short of reporting on everyone you see for doing just about anything a jailable offense. With minimum sentences, up to and including life without parole.
    The problem with Gonzales is that he has been deeply involved in developing some of the most sweeping claims of near-dictatorial presidential power in our nation's history, allowing him to imprison and even (at least in theory) torture anyone in the world, at any time
    Police officers don't have to give a reason at the time they arrest someone, the U.S. Supreme Court said in a ruling that shields officers from false-arrest lawsuits.
    More...

    13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption: Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
    Bush Cronyism: Foxes Guarding the henhouse
    Making Sense of the Abramoff Scandal
    If Bush's pick is confirmed, that will mean the five top appointees at Justice have zero prosecutorial experience among them.
    Iran-Contra Felons Get Good Jobs from Bush
    Big Iraq Reconstruction Contracts Went To Big Donors
    Bush Wars -- Crooks Get Contracts : The main companies that were awarded billions of dollars worth of contracts in Iraq have paid more than $300 million in fines since 2000, to resolve allegations of fraud, bid rigging, delivery of faulty military equipment, and environmental damage.
    US Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) lost track of $9 billion
    "Contracting in the aftermath of the hurricanes has been marked by waste, corruption and cronyism"
    More...

    14. Fraudulent Elections: Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
    Rolling Stone does some investigative and rather exhaustive digging into public documents and says we’re almost guaranteed the 2004 election results were massively rigged
    Powerful Government Accounting Office report confirms key 2004 stolen election findings
    Conyers hearing in which Clinton Curtis testifies that he was hired to create hackable voting machines (.wmv)
    The Republican Party has quietly paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to provide private defense lawyers for a former Bush campaign official charged with conspiring to keep Democrats from voting in New Hampshire.
    The Conyers Report (.pdf)
    No explanation for the machines in Mahoning County that recorded Kerry votes for Bush, the improper purging in Cuyahoga County, the lock down in Warren County, the 99% voter turnout in Miami County, the machine tampering in Hocking County
    Less access than Kazakhstan. Fewer fail-safes than Venezuela. Not as simple Republic of Georgia. The 2004 Elections according to international observers.
    This picture is what stopped the ballot recounts in Florida shortly after it seemed that legitimate President Gore had a lead. The "citizens" started what was later called "the preppy riot". Screaming, yelling, pounding on the walls, these "outraged citizens" intimidated the polling officials to halt the court mandated recount. A closer look reveals who they really were. They were bussed and flown in at Republican lawmakers expense. Some even flew in on Tom Delay's private plane

    http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm
     
  2. RodrickRhodes

    RodrickRhodes Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2006
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    0
  3. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 1999
    Messages:
    8,507
    Likes Received:
    181
    The American Gestapo is here.

    That's such a reprehensible and outlandish parallel that it's barely worth typing out an indictment of this crap. Oh no, the police state is here! Better run to Canada!
     
  4. thadeus

    thadeus Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2003
    Messages:
    8,313
    Likes Received:
    726
    Yes, it's entirely ridiculous to think that a national government would attempt to consolidate its power by exploiting the psychological weaknesses of its citizens.
     
  5. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 1999
    Messages:
    8,507
    Likes Received:
    181
    No, but it is entirely ridiculous to make a comparison to Nazi Germany.
     
  6. thadeus

    thadeus Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2003
    Messages:
    8,313
    Likes Received:
    726
    Why? That's what Nazi Germany did.
     
  7. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 1999
    Messages:
    8,507
    Likes Received:
    181
    Uh, does the US look like Nazi Germany to you? It doesn't to me. So I think declaring that the 'Gestapo is here' both trivializes what the Gestapo actually did and presents a picture of the US that simply doesn't exist.
     
  8. thadeus

    thadeus Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2003
    Messages:
    8,313
    Likes Received:
    726
    So you're arguing from more of an aesthetic disagreement than a disagreement over whether there are similar policies at work?
     
  9. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    14,304
    Likes Received:
    596
    Good enough thread to post this:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/20/AR2006072001816.html

    Top-Secret World Loses Blogger
    CIA Contractor Is Fired When Internal Post Crosses the Line

    By Dana Priest
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Friday, July 21, 2006; Page A15

    Christine Axsmith, a software contractor for the CIA, considered her blog a success within the select circle of people who could actually access it.

    Only people with top-secret security clearances could read her musings, which were posted on Intelink, the intelligence community's classified intranet. Writing as Covert Communications, CC for short, she opined in her online journal on such national security conundrums as stagflation, the war of ideas in the Middle East and -- in her most popular post -- bad food in the CIA cafeteria.

    Christine Axsmith, with her husband, Justin Benedict, says she was fired by BAE Systems after she took a stand on the Geneva Conventions.
    Christine Axsmith, with her husband, Justin Benedict, says she was fired by BAE Systems after she took a stand on the Geneva Conventions. (By Kevin Clark -- The Washington Post)

    But the hundreds of blog readers who responded to her irreverent entries with titles such as "Morale Equals Food" won't be joining her ever again.

    On July 13, after she posted her views on torture and the Geneva Conventions, her blog was taken down and her security badge was revoked. On Monday, Axsmith was terminated by her employer, BAE Systems, which was helping the CIA test software.

    As a traveler in the classified blogosphere, Axsmith was not alone. Hundreds of blog posts appear on Intelink. The CIA says blogs and other electronic tools are used by people working on the same issue to exchange information and ideas.

    CIA spokesman Paul Gimigliano declined to comment on Axsmith's case but said the policy on blogs is that "postings should relate directly to the official business of the author and readers of the site, and that managers should be informed of online projects that use government resources. CIA expects contractors to do the work they are paid to do."

    A BAE Systems spokesman declined to comment.

    Axsmith, 42, said in an interview this week that she thinks of herself as the Erma Bombeck of the intel world, a "generalist" writing about lunch meat one day, the war on terrorism the next. She said she first posted her classified blog in May and no one said a thing. When she asked, managers even agreed to give her the statistics on how many people were entering the site. Her column on food pulled in 890 readers, and people sent her reviews from other intelligence agency canteens.

    The day of the last post, Axsmith said, after reading a newspaper report that the CIA would join the rest of the U.S. government in according Geneva Conventions rights to prisoners, she posted her views on the subject.

    It started, she said, something like this: "Waterboarding is Torture and Torture is Wrong."

    And it continued, she added, with something like this: "CC had the sad occasion to read interrogation transcripts in an assignment that should not be made public. And, let's just say, European lives were not saved." (That was a jab at Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice's trip to Europe late last year when she defended U.S. policy on secret detentions and interrogations.) A self-described "opinionated loudmouth with a knack for writing a catchy headline," Axsmith also wrote how it was important to "empower grunts and paper pushers" because, she explained in the interview, "I'm a big believer in educating people at the bottom, and that's how you strengthen an infrastructure."

    In her job as a contractor at the CIA's software-development shop, Axsmith said, she conducted "performance and stress testing" on computer programs, and that as a computer engineer she had nothing to do with interrogations. She said she did read some interrogation-related reports while performing her job as a trainer in one counterterrorism office.[/quote]


    From wikipedia:

    Lovely practice for a "civilized" nation.
     
  10. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 1999
    Messages:
    8,507
    Likes Received:
    181
    No, I'm arguing that the scope projected in the article is unrealistic and that the rhetoric used is offensive.
     
    #10 HayesStreet, Jul 21, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2006
  11. hkomives

    hkomives Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2003
    Messages:
    347
    Likes Received:
    4
    Heard on Foxnews that there are 50,000 Canadians in Lebanon waiting to be evacuated. Turned out that they're Lebanese declaring themselves Canadians all a sudden to gain safe haven. They are now checking for duo citizenships and legit passports to sort the mess out. Apparently some people does want to willing go to Canada.
     
  12. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 1999
    Messages:
    8,507
    Likes Received:
    181
  13. rodrick_98

    rodrick_98 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2000
    Messages:
    4,362
    Likes Received:
    6
    that means the gestapo is here!!! everybody hide in the sewers!!!!!!! :eek:
     
  14. thadeus

    thadeus Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2003
    Messages:
    8,313
    Likes Received:
    726
    Offensiveness is neither here nor there where the truth is concerned. And maybe this is an accurate, and important, comparison. Maybe it isn't.

    From my perspective, there are enough parallels between the way modern American politicians garner, maintain, and consolidate power and the methods used by fascist regimes to do the same thing that shouting "It could never happen here!" simply because our politicans aren't wearing the right uniforms amounts to a willful refusal to recognize the potential that a real storm could be rolling in from the horizon.
     
  15. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 1999
    Messages:
    8,507
    Likes Received:
    181
    First, the comparison says the storm is here. "American Gestapo is here." If anything such exaggerated slant is going to turn people away from critical examination of the issue. Second, the trivialization of what the Gestapo represents itself serves to desensitize us to the true horrors that were committed and that could be committed in a similar fashion.


    Just because you say the the sky is falling doesn't mean the rest of us are sticking our heads in the sand.
     
  16. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2002
    Messages:
    15,557
    Likes Received:
    17
    Why is it that every discussion of fascism ends in the inevitable Nazi Germany comparison? Nazi Germany was NOT the only fascist regime to ever exist, and that's not their 'claim to fame'...there were other reasons.

    IMO, it would be difficult to make an argument that the U.S. government is a fascist one, but an argument could be made -- indeed, it has been made by some -- that America is moving in that direction, and something needs to be done about it.

    The problem here, IMO, is that most Americans are almost preconditioned to think that fascism is inherently 'evil', which is understandable given the history involved here. Similarly, the assumption is often made that democracy is inherently 'good'. In both cases, these are mostly ethno-centric assumptions that have -- or at least should have -- little to no effect on the discussion. Communism is not inherently 'evil', nor is fascism, nor is democracy, nor are theocracies.
     
  17. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2003
    Messages:
    8,196
    Likes Received:
    19
    Great read, especially for guys like SamFisher. Hayes is exempted since he is hopeless.
     
    #17 wnes, Jul 22, 2006
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2006
  18. Dairy Ashford

    Dairy Ashford Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    14,585
    Likes Received:
    1,888
    They want to capitalize on the symbolism that the term fascism links with Nazism, knowing full well that typical American readers, myself included, would lack the historical knowledge to associate the philosophy with any other regime. But then they adhere to a literal definition of the term, which allows for broad enough tendencies to include both modern America and the Third Reich. Hence, decreased art funding = Krystalnacht.

    This is similar to when Evangelists call Muslims a cult, which was happening long before 9/11 (I heard it 14 yrs ago in a Saturday bible study that was supposed to be part of my Episcopal confirmation courses). Or when J. Edgar Hoover called MLK a communist.
     
  19. tigermission1

    tigermission1 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2002
    Messages:
    15,557
    Likes Received:
    17
    I understand why it's done, but intellectuals must see beyond that, because these groups are not interested in an honest discourse, they're merely serving their own interests, be it political, social, or otherwise...
     
  20. thadeus

    thadeus Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2003
    Messages:
    8,313
    Likes Received:
    726
    So a bit of sensationalistic writing is enough to deter you from examining the rest of the article? Is it that one issue that you find more important, the actual language used, instead of the content? So far, it seems to me you disagree because you don't like the sound of it - and that America doesn't have the potential to be fascist because "it doesn't look like Nazi Germany." Those are aesthetic judgments, as I mentioned earlier.

    Also, if your gripe with the article is the claim that the "Gestapo is already here" (again, I need to point out that this was one phrase in an entire article, and while it's hyperbolic, shouldn't invalidate the rest of the article unless you're all-too-willing to dismiss it). So, you believe then that the article is incorrect only in its timing? Or you believe that "it can't happen here?" Forgive me if your immediate dismissal of the article comes across as a bit confusing. Or are you dismissing the article? Are you simply offended by the words used?

    You'll note that no special place is given to the Nazis, the Holocaust, etc., but instead to fascist regimes through the 20th century.


    So, you believe that the issue should be critically examined, but you believe the people who would be doing the critical examination would be/are being deterred by some hyperbole?

    It could easily be argued that the use of the term "Gestapo" was calculated to make unfavorable comparisons between the U.S. government and the secret police of Nazi Germany. But, have a read here (you'll enjoy it): Section of the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act that creates a national police force. (seriously, have a read of it). Surely you wouldn't be so intentionally obtuse to deny the applicability of a comparison between the hidden-in-plain-sight police force and the state secret police of a fascist regime? Would you? Did you see the part where they can arrest anyone, at anytime, without a warrant? Or, would you rather the writer used, say, DINA (Dirección de Inteligencia Nacional, Pinochet's secret police) for their comparison because it doesn't have the same historical heft as "The Gestapo?" Would that have been okay?

    And again, while the language may be somewhat alarmist, note that the original article is primarily discussing the means and methods used by fascist regimes to garner, maintain, and consolidate power.


    Okay. At what point in the sky's descent would it be appropriate to mention that it's falling? When its momentum can be halted, or when it's already too late? (<--- nice hyperbole, eh? does that mean everything I just typed should be dismissed?)
     

Share This Page