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Is the Christian deity a communist?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Woofer, Dec 24, 2003.

  1. Woofer

    Woofer Member

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    By my reading, Jesus was a communist but then again I'm a heathen. It doesn't matter to me. But some folks of faith are reading something similar to that in the Bible's teachings.

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1224/p14s03-lire.html

    Inequity: Is it a sin?

    The rich-poor gap in the United States has doubled in 21 years and is set to widen further under new tax cuts. People of faith say society has a moral responsibility to narrow that gap.

    By Jane Lampman | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

    America is changing: The society that has prided itself on being an egalitarian model for the world has become more unequal than "aristocratic" Europe, economists confirm. The rich-poor gap has doubled in 21 years and now is at its widest since 1929. The number of those in poverty rose by 1.7 million between 2001 and 2002. New tax cuts will add to the disparity.
    Does this mean something's gone wrong with the American dream? Some people of faith think so. This is more than an economic or social concern, they say. It's a moral and theological issue - one they insist demands attention.

    "A fundamental teaching in the New Testament and strongly present in the Hebrew scripture is that God has a special care for those who are poor and needy," says the Rev. Joseph Hough, president of Union Theological Seminary. "I'm deeply concerned about the directions we are taking in our common life." In a recent sermon at Riverside Church in New York, Dr. Hough said the three Abrahamic faiths share this teaching and urged believers to actively resist public policies that further increase inequality.

    Taxes that burden the poor more

    This fall, Gov. Bob Riley of Alabama, a conservative Republican, called, albeit unsuccessfully, for voters to approve reform of his state's tax system, which places a higher burden on the poor than on the wealthy - what economists call a "regressive tax system." "According to our Christian ethics, we're supposed to love God, love each other, and help take care of the less fortunate," he said.

    Once an ardent anti-tax congressman, Mr. Riley changed his view after becoming governor and reading the report of an Alabama tax lawyer who examined the state's tax structures in the light of Judeo-Christian ethics.

    Surveys consistently show that Americans consider themselves highly religious and say they want more morality in public life. Yet all too often, some leaders contend, people don't connect the dots - they fail to see how their faith's teachings relate not just to personal morality but public responsibilities.

    Susan Pace Hamill, the Alabama lawyer who sparked Riley's reform effort, says she was like that. She had a comfortable life with her husband and kids, teaching tax and corporate law at the University of Alabama, until she undertook graduate work at an evangelical seminary and did an in-depth study of biblical teaching and its application to her field. That woke her up, she says.

    "Tax is a moral issue, and has to do with what is just," Ms. Hamill adds. "Your laws are unjust if they tolerate oppression of the poor and if your community infrastructure fails to provide for the minimum needs of the least of us - and allows them the chance to better their situation."

    In Alabama, some low-income people pay income tax at a higher rate than the wealthy. "The state's powerful timber industry, which owns 71 percent of the land, pays 2 percent of the property taxes. Meanwhile, we overtax poor people with punishing high sales taxes even on groceries, reaching 11 percent in some counties," she says. At the same time, the state's infrastructure, including public education, is ranked near the bottom of the 50 states. "We are not prospering," she adds.

    While Alabama is an extreme case, Hamill believes it should be a warning about what can happen when the burdens start getting shifted onto middle- and lower-income people. She's concerned that in the national tax debate, "people are not looking at it from any moral framework other than, 'Whatever I've got, I've earned, and it's all mine.' "

    People of faith see this issue from varying perspectives, however. The Rev. Robert Sirico, who heads the conservative Acton Institute for Religion and Liberty, says it's important to recognize the role that economically successful people have in ensuring a dynamic and prosperous economy - that the majority of their wealth is invested and is employing people.

    "While I agree that Americans tend not to have a very sophisticated moral understanding of social and financial obligation," he says, "part of the problem is that when tax rates reach confiscatory levels, as high as 50 percent, it causes people to react and want to keep it all."

    Father Sirico favors a flat tax, where everyone pays the same percentage of their income and the poorest of the poor are exempt - a direction in which some say the US is heading. He sees the progressive system, which taxes higher incomes at a higher rate, as not only unjust, but as proportionally decreasing economic productivity.

    Others take issue with that view. "If you look at economic performance over time, or at international comparisons, there is no evidence that more unequal income distribution is good for economic growth," insists Bernard Wasow, senior economist at The Century Fund.

    In Mr. Wasow's view, a progressive tax is fairer. "Economists generally talk about the burden a tax places on a family, and it's a question of imposing equal burdens," he says.

    Richest nation with highest poverty

    Many of those concerned with rising inequality agree that it is not the gap per se that is the problem, but what is happening to people at lower income levels.

    "I'm less concerned with the ratio between the top 20 percent and the bottom 20 percent than with what's happening to the bottom 20 or 40 percent," says Ron Sider, head of Evangelicals for Social Action. "It's a scandal that the richest society in human history has the highest poverty level of any industrial nation."

    People of other faiths share that concern. "Poverty is a theological issue from a Jewish perspective," says Rabbi Brad Hirschfield, of the National Jewish Center for Learning and Leadership, because it "assaults a human being's dignity as the image of God." But, he adds, "I worry even more about the dignity of a society that allows people to be impoverished."

    In Islam, the Koran's emphasis on a just society requires that every Muslim give 2.5 percent of his wealth each year to the poor. "Yet most Muslims would say, too, that public policy must address poverty," says Ihsan Bagby, of the University of Kentucky. "If God doesn't want disparity between rich and poor, then that has to be addressed at all levels of society, from political leadership to corporate managers down to the individual."

    While tax policies are far from the only means to attack poverty - education, minimum wage, the faith-based initiative, and welfare reforms are also seen as key - many see the large tax cuts as undermining the country's capacity to support those programs adequately.

    They say that bringing moral considerations into the economic debate is essential to the well-being of a democratic society.

    "We must be concerned with the ratio of unequal wealth because money is power, and when it is divided very unequally, those with power use it politically in selfish ways," says Dr. Sider. "When that inequality removes hope and incentive for people at the bottom, it undermines character and responsibility, producing despair and more bad choices."

    It can also increase cynicism about public institutions. In Alabama, even low-income people who would have benefited from the tax reform voted against it, largely, observers say, because of their deep distrust of government.

    Yet Hamill is encouraged somewhat. Though she's been bitterly attacked by some Christians, some denominations in the state are calling for a renewed reform effort, and she's been invited to other states to talk about her work. She's also engaged in research on the federal tax system.

    "Economic studies provide no clear answers other than really high taxes are bad and regressive taxes are bad," she says. "Other claims being made regarding flat taxes have no hard evidence, but they're being substituted for moral analysis."

    Sider suggests that both religious and secular traditions are to blame for the lack of moral deliberation. "From the evangelical side, there's the dreadful privatizing of Christian faith where it relates to personal life and sexual and marriage issues but somehow not to ... economic policy." And the secular academic world became relativistic so there was no way to get common moral values to shape arguments, he says. "So economists tend to ignore morality and say that's not what they are doing, and thus it's largely not acceptable to have explicitly moral arguments about public policy."

    Fairness may be in the eye of the beholder. But in a democratic society, these leaders say, that's a very good reason for insisting that the deeper issues be brought into the public conversation.
     
  2. IROC it

    IROC it Member

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    All communist regimes, and the chief of communism -Karl Marx- deny any religion, especially Christianity, as essential, and have gone as far as shooting Christians for meeting together.

    Communism is Anti-Christian.

    Therefore your answer is "no."

    Sorry, but these "folks of faith" are whacked in their theology.
     
  3. Woofer

    Woofer Member

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    The totalitarian regimes that were nominally called Communist. This is not what I meant.

    This is what I meant.

    Definition: \Com"mu*nism\, n. [F. communisme, fr. commun common.]
    A scheme of equalizing the social conditions of life;
    specifically, a scheme which contemplates the abolition of
    inequalities in the possession of property, as by
    distributing all wealth equally to all, or by holding all
    wealth in common for the equal use and advantage of all.

    Note: At different times, and in different countries, various
    schemes pertaining to socialism in government and the
    conditions of domestic life, as well as in the
    distribution of wealth, have been called communism.
     
  4. Woofer

    Woofer Member

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    Sorry if I don't automatically think of Marxism when I hear the word communism. I know this is the debate and discussion forum, that wasn't where I was going with this. There is a difference between Communist, communist, and Marxist so calling them all the same thing doesn't illustrate the point much.


    http://www.wordiq.com/cgi-bin/knowledge/lookup.cgi?title=Communism
    .
    .
    .
    Note: According to the 1996 third edition Fowler's Modern English Usage, communism is always written with a small "c". Big "C" Communism (and its related forms) refers to a political party with that name, a member of that party, or a government led by such a party.
    .
    .
    .
     
  5. IROC it

    IROC it Member

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    I see your point, but Marxism has been the only form of Communism most people associate the word communism (lower case 'c') with.


    Unfortunately, the idea works on paper... even when looking at what Christ taught, but fails in reality of application.

    Christ did teach taking care of the needs of others, but no where did he condemn the rich because they were rich. He condemned the rich because of greed, wealth for the sake of wealth, vanity, etc.

    It has long been a debate... but I beg to differ that Jesus Christ is not a communist or Communist in any way shape or form of the modern terminology.

    As for the taxation question. Jesus taught that Caesar's (government tax) was Caesar's and God's is God's... aka obey the laws of taxation. two excerpts:

    and

    Seperation of church and state???
     
  6. thadeus

    thadeus Member

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    I find it encouraging that religious people are viewing economic disparity as a moral issue that must be dealth with.

    Much more realistic than thinking one can save the world by hurling abuse at women at abortion clinics or by forcing record companies to put parental advisory stickers on albums. This is an issue where organized religion could truly, and in the most practical and concrete sense, make the world a better place.

    But, of course, some well-off people who claim to be God-fearing will find a million reasons to debate this interpretation of Biblical passages, and by doing that will find a million more reasons to maintain the social inequitiees they believe they benefit from - no matter who suffers.
     
  7. MR. MEOWGI

    MR. MEOWGI Contributing Member

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    Forced communism does not work. But volunteered communism can.

    I once had a teacher who was a Franciscan Priest. He made a vow to poverty, he could not own a thing. He lived in a "commune" with others who made the same vow. American Indians, etc., lived in communal cultures. It is very feasible if everyone makes a commitment or has the understanding.

    You just cant force it on people. It then becomes oppressive. But communism itself can be a good thing.
     
  8. moestavern19

    moestavern19 Member

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    Those people are whacked and so are you woofer! you need to grab a ride on the Jesus train dude. Jesus saves lives, sheeeeeeeeeesh I know he was watching my lazy ass when that earthquake hit yesterday. :)
     
  9. giddyup

    giddyup Member

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    Jesus promotes Christian charity not government intervention.
     
  10. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    You really want to make this claim for Jesus? How would you know how he'd feel about today's society and our government?
     
  11. giddyup

    giddyup Member

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    Are you saying that he didn't promote personal Christian charity? I am saying that he didn't clamor for government programs. Prove to me he did and I will stand corrected. I am not conjecturing anything; I am recalling what I know of Jesus' life.
     
  12. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    I'm not saying he didn't promote personal Christian charity. I'm just not so sure I'd feel so comfortable spouting off that Jesus wouldn't want government intervention. If you're going to make a claim like that, you better have something other than your personal political ideology to back it up.
     
  13. giddyup

    giddyup Member

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    I did a Bible search online and couldn't find anything to back up your implied assertion that Jesus was a Big Government advocate! :D

    When you can disprove my meek assertion, I'll stop "spouting off." If I remember correctly, wasn't it the government of Rome that had Jesus crucified? Let's start there....

    Calling MadMax to answer Bible questions!!! :)
     
  14. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    I never asserted that Jesus would be in favor of government intervention. All I said was I wouldn't feel comfortable saying that he wasn't.

    If you're going to make an accusation, the burden's on you to prove it, not for me to disprove.
     
  15. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Member

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    I do believe that it is hard to clamor for government programs when, during the Roman Empire, no such programs existed. But, good try anyway giddyup!!!
     
  16. giddyup

    giddyup Member

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    Of course I knew that; I almost pointed it up but it was so obvious. If Jesus the Christ saw government programs as a solution to human want, why didn't he suggest them? I daresay that he asserted other charitable solutions.
     
  17. giddyup

    giddyup Member

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    I read this ("You really want to make this claim for Jesus? How would you know how he'd feel about today's society and our government?") as an accusation. Therefore the burden of proof is on you, my friend, not me. Those are our own words.

    None of us (myself included) are even obliged to respond to an accusation. We may need to respond to a delineated dis-proof of our assertions but that is way beyond mere accusation and demands and/or deserves response.
     
  18. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    Jesus came to deal with the key issue of sin. Along the way he made tons of comments about all sorts of things. He definitely advocated justice, NOW.

    As a Christian, I think many government programs are ones God smiles on. He finds millions of ways to bless every single one of us everyday...why can't He use government programs to do that? The question is, what are the costs? Not just financially...does He smile on creating a society where incentives to work and be productive are removed...does He smile on the inefficiencies of governments? I would say no. But He works through all things for good...for His purpose. And you can't have a society that says, "we'll do nothing to help people with public money." There just has to be some balance...some reasonable nature to it.

    Jesus Christ came to address our hearts and how far apart they were from God. I know social workers who work in government programs who are filled with a relationship with the Lord..and take that attitude to work with them each day. They, in turn, bless others through those publicly-funded programs. I think God thinks that's pretty cool.

    I will say that when I write my check to the IRS, I'm not doing it with a spirit of giving. I'm doing it because if I don't, I go to jail. This God who convicts my heart is probably not real likely to judge that to be a gift...or sharing from my heart.
     
  19. giddyup

    giddyup Member

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    Great answer Max!

    I'm more than comfortable with that beautiful elaboration on the small point that I made.. which was that "Jesus promotes Christian charity not government intervention."
     
  20. mr_gootan

    mr_gootan Member

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    The challenge to care for the poor was made by Jesus to the believers (church). He commended those who had taken care of orphans, widows, and the needy because it was providing personal examples of who Jesus claimed God is like.

    He could have been referring to governmental intervention if those who are in authority were also Christian. Otherwise, His call was to the church only.

    For those who call on non-christian governmental officials to give more charity to the poor misunderstand the reason for the charity, which is the spread of the Gospel. As for the article, my view is that these people who want more economic morality in government are just looking for any way to help the poor. Although commendable, the result shouldn't be the "end", but a means to an end (witnessing).

    (To me, the notion of getting the government to give you money is not as strong of a sentiment as giving the money out of your own pocket. Of course these people might not have any money to give, so what do I know?)
     

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