and here i'm using the royal rimmy, which includes any and all snarky marks, fisher or bat men...apropos the incredibly sour response to this post http://iraqpundit.blogspot.com/2007/11/when-good-news-is-bad-news.html [rquoter] When Good News Is Bad News While the following good news stories may come as a great disappointment to many people, we Iraqis welcome the developments: This Arabic story says Baghdad officials decided to reopen 10 main roads in the city by removing concrete barriers. This is in addition to last week's reopening of Palestine Street, which had been blocked for security reasons. These Arabic stories say Deputy Prime Minister Barham Saleh placed the first stone to rebuild Baghdad's fabled Mutanabbi Street, which had been around since the Abbasids -- until it was blown up by insurgents last March. Before you start calling me names, let me say something. Nobody's saying everything's back to normal. This Arabic story says Nouri Al Maliki took a stroll along historic Abu Nawwas Street amid tight security. I know those who are wedded to the idea of a failed Iraq are calling me a deluded idiot and worse. But things are improving slowly. My relatives in Baghdad say there's no comparison; things are much better than they were six months ago. They can visit friends in different areas and walk about the neighbourhood in the evening. Frankly, I don't understand why so many mock us for wanting a future for Iraq. Is your hatred for George Bush so great that you prefer to see millions of civilians suffer just to prove him wrong? It really comes down to this: you are determined to see Iraq become a permanent hellhole because you hate Bush. And we are determined to see Iraq become a success, because we want to live.[/rquoter]
Every country that is NOT 3rd world attempts international influence aimed towards it's best interests...Less middle eastern countries which have the Sharia law, or the unaccounted dictatorship in public support of terroristic deeds benefits the U.S.,...It is difficult to be a terrorist when the government makes it harder to do so... That is why we are there and why it is worthwhile... Some middle-eastern countries are better than others while NOT perfect....It benefits us to get the "others" on board with those that are better...i.e. Jordon, U.A.E., even Saudi...
It's not worth the price we're paying to pick whether or not Iraq has a democracy or a dictator. We're not going to put humpty dumpty back together again. There are terrorist safe havens all over the middle east and we're too busy trying to hold Iraq together with duct tape and super glue to do anything about it. If we were to step away, then whoever is going to gain control will do so, and we can find leverage, because they have something to lose. If we are careful when we withdraw, we should be able to limit outside influence, and keep Iraq from becoming a regional war.
Indeed, as I have said I am for deliberated withdrawal ONLY because you can counter terrorists better in smaller groups in addition to precision air strikes... Terrorists rely on the larger, slower, logistically bound force to impact it's capability...Stepping away does enable whoever to gain control and HAVE something to lose....you are right. That can be intelligently exploited. I guess I'm more on board with your thought process than I first assumed. Where I may differ is that I feel Iraq is incomplete in it's outcome and not the failure many feel it is since "the game" is still in process. Good news and success happens when we give the home team the ball...The next President needs to see that happens,...I feel in this case it is better to take a step backward to take a step forward... I have observed that terrorists don't often make mistakes when backed in a corner but they DO usually make mistakes when they are given choices...They are not use to that, I guess... Withdrawing will force the hand of the terrorists to make choices and then we should: a. observe b. take decisive action...and by that I'm talking special force groups or private companies like Blackwater and surgical air strikes where needed... Use the leverage on the new government that holding the hand is over... That is the way forth...Massive intel, emphasis on special force groups with specific counter-terro training...
ROXRAN- Yeah... Agree completely. And I also agree that Iraq is still "in play" as we withdraw. Once we're moving out of Iraq, it is easier for the "friendly" regional players to get on board when we're not occupying Islamic soil. Diplomacy is a real possibility at this point. We give our military a chance to lick their wounds, and give ourselves some much needed flexibility in the region. We must have a very good plan for this power vacuum, this time. And a plan B, C...
From my perspective, the years of endless lies piled on top of lies means that when they say that things are getting better, I simply don't believe it. As T_J would say, NO CRED. I think this is almost universally the prevailing opinion, and maybe you don't realize it, but from where I'm sitting it just makes you look dishonest for blaming people when they don't believe you when you say that the war is won, when you've been proven wrong each of the 1,000 times you've said the same thing before. As soon as I am confronted with incontrovertible, evidence for an extended period, I might believe it. If we have sustained positive activity for a year, assuming we don't withdraw first, then I think I will give some serious thought to reevaluating my position. And when you think about blaming me because I'm being unreasonable, look in the mirror. The situation exists as it does because of you. This isn't unreasoning hatred out of nowhere. The insurgency's last throes apparently have gone on for the better part of two years. Bush told us we were going to get a definitive evaluation in September from Petraus. That definitive evaluation was, we have to wait longer before we can make a definitive evaluation. This crap goes back to the first year of the war, in an unbroken trail of bulls**t. You do have some limited positive statistics and a few anecdotal stories. Nice for you. This is coming from the people who tried to reclassify flipping burgers in McDonalds as a manufacturing job, and who set up fake news conferences and paid reporters hundreds of thousands of dollars to write positive 'opinion' pieces. Once bitten, twice shy. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. etc, etc, ad infinitum. Essentially you are like a alcoholic who repeatedly falls of the wagon, and then blames your family when they don't believe you on the 1,000,000 time you say you are going to stop drinking.
Yes, I hate Bush and would rather Iraqis die than see Bush succeed. http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=137113 (Good post Otto.)
Yes, I'm furious. I had high hopes for this thread when I saw the title. I was ready to walk into the town square with both pistols on my sides while I stare down basso, who gets in a wide stance and draws... a butter knife. This is getting a bit repetitive. See the people trying to lead normal lives amidst the chaos! See the number of dead go down! (Which means it's still going up.) See the shiny new paint! And all this means what? That the surge is working? That the blood and treasure we've spent is worth it? That the Iraqi lives lost are worth it? That the prestige and standing of our country was a worthy sacrifice? That our busted budget was necessary? That the lies and manipulation were needed for our own good? That the empowerment of Iran was unavoidable? Yay, things are not as bad as they have been! That doesn't justify one single thing about this war and really does more to highlight what a cluster this whole thing has become. Call me when W lands on another aircraft carrier.
I've learned that democracy arises in spite of human nature not because of it. People will almost always put self interest first, common interest second and the greater good last. Without a culture of intellectuals, liberals by definition, from which to draw leadership, you have no chance at overcoming factionalism. In Iraq or the US Congress.
It seems to me that you are almost looking at this problem from solely military terms. History has shown that insurgencys are ultimately defeated diplomatically and politically as the causes of insurgency are primarily political in nature and what fuels them is political. Your post sounds like that you would consider withdrawl as a chance to lure terrorists out in the open where they can be better easily struck have you considered that our withdrawl might actually force the Iraqis to come to terms with their own governance and compel them to make the hard compromises to wipe out support for terrorism?
Wow, Ottomaton... you uncorked a beauty. basso may have better luck with the orgasm thread in Hangout. (a great thread, by the way, with stunning statistics! ) D&D. Attempt Civility! Impeach Bush for Promoting Torture.
you've misunderstood the thread and my comment regarding the "sour" reaction to the picture. the question is not whether we have won the war, or are winning. i have no illusions about being able to convince anyone here of that, no matter the evidence. rather, it's whether yours, and the rimmsters' hatred of GWB trumps the basic humanity necessary to recognize what an incredible thing it is for muslims to be helping rebuild a church in Iraq. by your response, and the others in this thread, you've answered that question, and proved the point of this thread.
Is the Iraqi government going to pay us back for the price of this war? I would think that we should attach a percentage of their oil revenues to finance this war. DD
