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Investigation Shows Hundreds of US Cops Being Trained by Far-Right Extremists

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Homey the Clown, May 12, 2022.

  1. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member
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    For you maybe.
     
  2. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Trust the process
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    you're my favorite poster
     
  3. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    Yes the focus of LE budget and training needs to change. Having a bunch of military grade equipment and "warrior training" doesn't really help LEO in the long run and just furthers the division between the LE and the people they are sworn to protect.

    I've talked to a few LEO who recognize this and some are trying to change but there is so much institutional inertia and hamhanded reactions like "DEFUND THE POLICE!" haven't really helped.
     
  4. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet
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    This might make sense as a response if the original person reframed the question. I was not that person. I was asking a related but different question, which you responded to in a disingenuous way. It's okay though, your cheering section ate it up, so good for you.
    I would have a strong inclination to believe that it is teachers. I have interacted with teachers 6 hours a day, 200 or so days a year from the age of about 5 to about 18 (and that is without counting college and law school). How much interaction do most people have with police in that time span? If a police officer arrests someone for a felony or kills them, they would be more influential in that individual's life than teachers, but collectively, it can't even be close. Most people are only getting the secondary effect of crime reduction. While that is important, it can't possibly compare in terms of influence on your life of teachers.
    I would say it is a rather straightforward question. I managed to provide my answer to it in a few lines.

    I don't know where you went to college. I went to not incredibly progressive schools, and even then there was a significant left wing bias and views outside of the progressive orthodoxy were less welcome. My understanding is that the stats show this leaning has increased rather than decreased since I finished school. See, for example: Homogenous: The Political Affiliations of Elite Liberal Arts College Faculty by Mitchell Langbert | NAS
    His story was based on application to law firms immediately after leaving law school, not what he made of his career decades later (I think it was a 15 cent sticker, but that is not a relevant point). He was not taken seriously by law firms. It certainly was helpful to him though, because he got a job from a Republican Yale Law grad who was the Attorney General of Missouri.
    Many influential thinkers of all stripes are rooted deep in history. Do you think people never reference Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas, Plato, Kant, Descartes, or any of hundreds of philosophers, theologians, logicians, or other geniuses from more than 80 years ago? Do people on the left make no reference to the likes of Proudhon, Marx, Kropotkin? Do people not study Goethe or Nietzche or Kirkegard? Why would someone who is fairly foundational to an ideology not be mentioned as an influence?
     
  5. Aleron

    Aleron Contributing Member

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    The only real advantage police have in this environment is impact on an individual scenario at a given time, they don't interact with people enough or in a way to have any other advantage of influence.

    And the issue with police hasn't been ideologically related for a long time, the ongoing issue is that at any given time, there's probably 5-10% of the police that are so demoralized/desensitized from all the crap, they're basically professional assholes.
     
  6. SamFisher

    SamFisher Virtuous

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    would have a strong inclination to believe that it is teachers. I have interacted with teachers 6 hours a day, 200 or so days a year from the age of about 5 to about 18 (and that is without counting college and law school). How much interaction do most people have with police in that time span? If a police officer arrests someone for a felony or kills them, they would be more influential in that individual's life than teachers, but collectively, it can't even be close. Most people are only getting the secondary effect of crime reduction. While that is important, it can't possibly compare in terms of influence on your life of teachers.


    ^ like i said this is the problem - you lapse into your personal answer, throw out a bone to crime reduction, whatever that means. And... you're done! What about indirect effects of the background legal regime itself? Your personal answer is probably very different from someone living in Ferguson, MO.

    Aside from that it's too cute. How do you weight people who are murdered by police officers? Their lives end and are excluded from your accounting - very conveniently for you! What about kids whose fathers are locked away... Etc, i could go on forever. There's probably hundreds or thousands of these knock on effects of policing regimes.

    This is exactly why i said the question wasn't really answerable in any well grounded manner. When i said it was a manifold, you're not measuring points on a line with this question.
     
  7. txtony

    txtony Member

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    I heard that black people fear the police. That's a negative impact on nearly 15% of the US population. I don't fear the police, but if I do, that would really suck given the power they have. I trust the police to do the right thing but I have very little power to defend myself if they don't.

    Do folks fear teachers? Generally, that is a positive relationship for everyone. They may shape your ideas and could be extremely influential, but I think those generally tend to be toward the positive side. Not saying negative influence isn't there, but you do have pretty direct control over your mind on how you want to deal with their influence. You aren't so powerless.
     
  8. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro
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    I'm black. Law abiding blacks don't fear the police. Most black people don't know anyone who has been abused by police. By most I mean 99.9%
     
  9. txtony

    txtony Member

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    Good for you. Emotion is a strange thing. I have a fear of sharks when I'm in the open ocean even though I know of no one personally that has been bitten by a shark. I do have coworkers that have been harassed by the police just because of their skin color. This poll indicates victim of police violence is much more common than a shark attack (not that they are the same thing, but the group fear is understandable).

    [​IMG]
     
  10. CCorn

    CCorn Member

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    You said I’m your favorite poster. The **** is this
     
    Sweet Lou 4 2 and Os Trigonum like this.
  11. CCorn

    CCorn Member

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    One of my good friends is a former professional baseball player and is now in a wheelchair because an officer shot him in the spine. He’s white, but to pretend police brutality never happens is silly.
     
    rocketsjudoka likes this.
  12. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet
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    Crime reduction means that having police officers in your city that do things like patrol and make arrests lowers crime. Some cities tried to defund the police and crime went up. The thing is, even when crime went up, the chances of being a victim were still pretty low, just higher than when there was active policing. Burlington, VT reduced their police force by about 30%, and violent crime went up by just under 30%, but that only amounted to an additional 70 incidents per 100,000 people. So there is an effect, but the effect is not going to be felt frequently or by the majority of people.
    The background legal regime is not part of the comparison between police and teachers, more like the law and school. Even so, the average person rarely if ever is arrested or prosecuted. Most people's interactions with law enforcement are things like speeding tickets. For that mass majority, police have a relatively small impact on their lives (even in Ferguson, MO).
    It has the ultimate effect on that person and their family, but it is such a rarity that it is statistically insignificant. Police kill roughly a thousand people per year, mostly in justified homicides. Fewer than 10 police officers are even charged with murder per year, let alone convicted.
    Is that an affect of police officers? They contribute to it, but wouldn't that include the action of the parent that was locked away (generally that involves committing a crime), the witnesses who observed the crime, the prosecutor who charged and convicted the crime, the jury who rendered the verdict if it went to trial. The parent's decision to take a plea deal if it went that way. Some portion of that would be attributable to the police, but by no means all or even a majority of it.
    We cannot measure it exactly, but the sheer amount of interaction the average American has with teachers vs. police officers makes it fairly obvious that teachers have a greater effect on the life of the median American. The negative impact because a local officer went and had 12 hours of training with Tim Kennedy just cannot reasonably be estimated to be very high.
     
  13. SamFisher

    SamFisher Virtuous

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    [
    ^ Didn't really address the question at all in terms of the core apple/orange problem of measuring impacts across hundreds or thousands of non-mappable dimensions and just hand waving away stuff you don't like by limiting police influence to "arrests" or whatever. Still convinced that "we really can't say because the question isn't well suited to it" is a much better answer than your casual "for me it's teachers, easy!" (Also you continually ignore that people deal with police their entire lives vs. a short period w teachers. Also most teachers that i know at my kids school don't have punisher tattoos which is relevant here!)



    I do think it's funny that you're up there citing findings of justifiable homicides by police as proof of police beneficence....but 'll let someone else tackle that one.

    Anyhow, aside from the general malformation of the question, it's looks like you've absorbed the standard right wing trope from " new" rightists like Ben Shapiro or whomever that teachers are indoctrinating students and virtue signaling ir whatever....this is obviously not a new idea. It's been around since @Os Trigonum was getting started during Ike's first term

    To that i say good - that's what we as a society pay them for. Unlike cops, who often times deviate from the social compact.
     
  14. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    I have several black friends who have had negative experiences with police. I’m not even black and have had a couple of negative experiences with police. I’ve been pulled over and had my car searched with no reason given. I’ve been stopped and questioned by a plain clothes LEO in my own neighborhood over a string of garage break ins.
     
  15. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    I agree that most people have little interaction with LEO and most interactions are for things like traffic tickets. The influence though being an LEO wields is the force of law and the intimidation that carries.

    I’m sure many of you have seen this or even done this yourself when a squad car is driving by traffic will slow down. I’m sure many feel uncomfortable seeing a squad car in their rear view mirror even when they are doing nothing wrong. The uniform, badge and weapon all give LEO authority and intimidation that most other people don’t have.

    That is one reason also why it attracts people who are interested in intimidating people and getting more respect than they might otherwise have.
     
  16. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet
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    I specifically addressed other effects like a family member being locked up, speeding tickets, and someone being murdered, so I didn't limit police influence to arrests. Gettting a speeding ticket is just not generally going to have a big impact on one's life.
    That's nice. I am putting forward arguments that show WHY it is teachers for me. I have seen no arguments as to why police even might have as big an influence beyond the rare occasion that they murder you.
    I didn't ignore it at all. I gave a specific time period over which people are interacting with teachers. I estimate that people interact with the police orders of magnitude less. The vast majority of people will spend more time in one day with their teachers than they will their whole life interacting with the police.
    Who cares what tattoos people have? For that matter, how do you know what tattoos they have?
    I don't know if you are challenging that 1) the vast majority of officers killing suspects is done in lawful self-defense or defense of others, or 2) that doing so is okay and doesn't generally have a negative impact on society.
    That is your formulation. I said teachers have more influence on society than cops. It can be good or bad. You are dismissive of "wanna be Marxist" influences in the training of certain teachers. You are very concerned about "Far-Right Extremists" like Tim Kennedy training certain cops.
    I would say teachers that are teaching things far outside the agreed curriculum are deviating from the social compact.
     
  17. SamFisher

    SamFisher Virtuous

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    Aside from the fact that you refuse to accept my answer of "I don't know" - lol how many kids in public schools do you have.

    Let me guess, Same amount as Ben Shapiro, Ted Cruz etc
     
    #57 SamFisher, May 14, 2022
    Last edited: May 14, 2022
  18. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet
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    One foster, what is the relevance of the question?
     
  19. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro
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    What led to the shooting?
     
  20. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    Police departments need to recruit non-extremist folks - they should screen for prejudice and bias. And they need to screen the trainers as well.
     

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