http://www.basketball-reference.com...min=1000&sort=asc&limit=100&submit=View+Stats Deke at 6, Yao at 9, Stromile Swift at 14, T-mac at 22. I have to say I am surprised and happy that Stromile is that high. The spurs are the only other team with 4 players in the top 22.
I don't trust any stat tracker that says: 1 Ben Wallace 2 Tim Duncan 3 David Robinson 4 Arvydas Sabonis 5 Malik Rose & 6 Marcus Camby are better than: 7 Hakeem Olajuwon Hakeem was, without a doubt, better than all these players on defensive end with the exception of maybe Ben Wallace(big maybe). http://www.basketball-reference.com...min=10000&sort=asc&limit=50&submit=View+Stats
The rating isn't saying that these players are any better or worse defensively than certain players, it's just that their statistics turned out that way. And while AK47 had a brilliant first six weeks of the season last year, he was tentative and hesitant after coming back from injury.
The only guy who can make a claim to but the superior defensive presence/player than Hakeem would not be Ben Wallace, but perhaps Bill Russell. I don't think anyone else has any semblence of an argument.
If the stat isn't trying to rank a player's defensive ability, then what is it doing by ranking them? I think that this particular stat is not a good measure of defensive abilities.
It's there so we dig deeper into the scouting and whatever other statistical indicators in order to ask ourselves, "if we 'know' Player X is a 'better' defender than Player Y, then why don't his statistics reflect it?" I don't know how well the 78-05 list accounts for pace, because a slowed-down Pistons score from 2002 doesn't exactly mean they were playing any better defense than a Bucks team from 18 years earlier.
Having Jirk Flopinski at #16, ahead of T-Mac at 20? Bruce Bowen is way down at 43? Tayshaun Prince at 75? I don't know the formulas used for the rankings but common sense says it's obvious defensive play can't be quantified fairly just by stats because altered shots, forced turnovers (I don't mean steals), fighting through pick and rolls, blocking out for rebounds and such like aren't recorded. Grading individual defensive ability is much more subjective than offensive play because most stats are recorded on the offensive end. I applaud the effort of this website but the results prove their statistical methods on defensive ratings are gravely flawed.
Agreed!! and while i never did see Bill Russel play - i can safely assume that alot of his blocked shots were against MUCH shorter players? I really think they should try placing Hakeem in that historical context-he woulda torn sh*t up. People better recognise the Dream's greatness.
Defense cannot be accurately quantified b/c all the intangibles that go into it do not show up in the stat sheet >>>>> these rankings are useless.
Dream learned to play the game after Bill Russell. Hakeem might not have even thought to block shots if he played then. Yes, Hakeem was great, but he would not have been so fantastic if he was not a student of the game. I'm not trying to say who is better than who here, but I am trying to say that Bill Russell helped Hakeem to be the player he became directly and indirectly. In other words, Hakeem's greatness can be credited to the people who came before him.
wow i think you've gone far beyond reaching. i'm pretty sure dream would have figured out shot-blocking without ever seeing a clip of bill russell who apparently invented it. every great player learns from those before him, including russell, but i think it's pretty safe to assume dream's amazing natural ability and instinct would have taken over with or without any aid he MAY have got from watching russell. on that note moses malone probably had more influence on a young dream than any other center.
BigM, I think you are taking my statement as an extreme case. I'm more reasonable than you are giving me credit for. Hakeem learned to play from other players, period. He was not a basketball player at birth. What was great about Hakeem is that he learned, used what he learned and then added his own style to the game to become an even better player than his teachers. Now assuming that Hakeem would have been a great shot blocker and player because he had the natural ability to do so is not reasonable. A lot of people used to think that the earth was flat, but someone disagreed. It didn't have to be Christopher Columbus, but that person who thought of it first influenced Columbus. Bill Russell is the Christopher Columbus of shot blocking. He made it popular. (Evidence: they didn't even record blocked shots when Russell started playing) There is a reasonable possibility that Hakeem would have not even thought to block shots without Bill Russell proving that it was effective to try to do so. It just seems natural because you and I have grown up with shot blocking. At some point someone had the first blocked shot, that's a fact. Bill Russell didn't invent defense or the blocked shot, but he certainly changed the way the game was played and he certainly made defense a focus for big men of the future. An assumption is your entire basis for your argument and the assumption, like you said, is pretty safe to make, but not to assume the level of greatness. Bill Russell did fine tune the learned skill of shot blocking and taught it to others. My argument is that there has been an evolution to the game and that Hakeem is a product of. Hakeem is great because of who came before him, he's not some basketball god who came to earth with all the know-how to play the game. Hakeem was good, but he had help to get there. That's all I'm saying. (*side note- I completely agree with the Moses statement, but where did Moses learn from?)
Player Efficiency Rating (1978-2005) Tmac at 6 Dream at 9 Yao at 21 At least almost everyone in the top 50 on this list are big name players in NBA history.
Yao's biggest defensive attribute is his size (i.e. his ability to clog the lane and force/put off shots without contact). If this was translated into a stat, he'd be top-3.
Reversing it just for 2005 is interesting too. Derek Anderson is 36. Other interesting ones: 3 Tyronn Lue 33 Nick Van Excel 43 Cuttino Mobley 45 Damon Stoudamire 51 Latrell Sprewell 61 Gary Payton 84 Antoine Walker 88 Michael Finley 90 Steve Francis 96 Shareef Abdur-Rahim 99 Mike James (only current Rocket and he JUST made the bottom 100) Interesting all these guys we've tried/or are trying to get are rated in the 100 worst category.
